The Relational Parenting Podcast

[jennifer_hayes]: All right,

[jennifer_hayes]: Right, hello, Caroline.

[caroline]: An

[jennifer_hayes]: Welcome

[caroline]: hi pop,

[jennifer_hayes]: to.

[caroline]: Rick,

[papa_rick]: There,

[jennifer_hayes]: I love that we've made that a thing. now. Since
Marie did it. she started calling him Papa Rick, So he changed

[jennifer_hayes]: it

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: It You like. Do you like your nickname?

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: yeah, I've had worse nicknames. That's a pretty.
That's a pretty nice nickname.

[jennifer_hayes]: Rick? I think it's cute.

[papa_rick]: Papa Rick, kind of defines my role too,

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: you know, I'm just the day sitting here

[jennifer_hayes]: Dad,

[papa_rick]: chiming

[jennifer_hayes]: On

[papa_rick]: in,

[jennifer_hayes]: the So we are, This is episode two of our education
series And let's see two of five And we are here with Caroline

[jennifer_hayes]: La Pierre, and she is a registered psychologist.
And why are you making that face? Dad. What

[papa_rick]: So three, isn't it

[jennifer_hayes]: Marie was not an educated, wasn't educational.

[papa_rick]: Okay? I'm sorry.

[jennifer_hayes]: That's okay.

[papa_rick]: Strike that

[jennifer_hayes]: Um, see like that. we can

[papa_rick]: I

[jennifer_hayes]: cut.

[papa_rick]: was like,

[jennifer_hayes]: We

[papa_rick]: Goes

[jennifer_hayes]: can

[papa_rick]: like

[jennifer_hayes]: cut

[papa_rick]: that.

[jennifer_hayes]: that or leave it in. It's some of it's entertaining.

[jennifer_hayes]: So it's episode two of the five part education
series and my friend Caroline is here to talk to us. She works

[jennifer_hayes]: with children and families Inside the education
system. She owns a psychology practice that is private and families

[jennifer_hayes]: come to her to ask for diagnosis and help advocating
for their kids needs in the education system. And so she is coming

[jennifer_hayes]: to us from Canada, and she is here to talk about
and give you guys tips for helping your kid Through the education

[jennifer_hayes]: system, Because we all know that can be. It's
a team effort. and if any, part of that team is pushing back

[jennifer_hayes]: and not listening to you as parents, that can
be extremely difficult. so

[papa_rick]: Ah,

[jennifer_hayes]: um,

[papa_rick]: that's a bad scene.

[jennifer_hayes]: yeah, so welcome,

[caroline]: So

[jennifer_hayes]: Caroline. Why don't

[caroline]: I

[jennifer_hayes]: you?

[caroline]: thank you for having me.

[jennifer_hayes]: you're welcome? Um, let's see how did you get
started working with kids?

[caroline]: So I have been working with his pretty much since
I was eighteen years old, going through my first degree and got

[caroline]: a job basically as a teaching assistant. Actually,
where I live. it was the second language teaching assistant position,

[caroline]: still working with French and English. And then I
did that kind of throw up my university and got a couple different

[caroline]: degrees started. A couple of different degrees stopped
those and then decided to pursue education. And then I worked

[caroline]: as a teacher for six years. I taught middle school
grade five to nine pretty much every subject under the sun. And

[caroline]: then you know that is where it really started jumping
out to me, Like the different struggles of Um, just families

[caroline]: and students trying to kind of navigate life, trying
to navigate school in the different struggles that come up right.

[caroline]: Um, and when you're teaching middle school like classes
are so big, I had usually a hundred and eighty kids walking through

[caroline]: my door every day,

[jennifer_hayes]: My

[caroline]: so

[jennifer_hayes]: gosh.

[caroline]: trying to yeh. So which is bananas right?

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: And when you're trying to like help these students
and figure out what's the best for them, It just like time is

[caroline]: so limited that that becomes really difficult. So
I knew that I didn't want to be a teacher. Like going forward,

[caroline]: and then that just kind of transition naturally to
what I do now, which is educational psychology. And then that

[caroline]: just allows me to work on One with kids and with families
to support them so that hopefully they can go forward and then

[caroline]: get that support from the teachers that they need.

[jennifer_hayes]: Some. what were so? grades five through nine?
That's that's a hard group

[papa_rick]: Middle.

[jennifer_hayes]: like. Oh

[papa_rick]: I

[jennifer_hayes]: God,

[papa_rick]: was on the school board. Yeah, for a while middle
school. nobody's got anything on teaching middle schoolers.

[jennifer_hayes]: Those were.

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: even. Those were even my least favorite years
as a kid

[caroline]: Oh

[jennifer_hayes]: was

[caroline]: yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: like. Anyway,

[papa_rick]: They need help. Hormones

[jennifer_hayes]: What were some?

[papa_rick]: going crazy, and

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah, So so a hundred and eighty kids. I, I
came from a very tiny school system. I graduated with fifty four

[jennifer_hayes]: kids in my class. So the

[caroline]: Okay,

[jennifer_hayes]: thought of a hundred and eighty students coming
through one class room in a day is insane to me. How did you

[jennifer_hayes]: Juggle a hundred and eighty different unique
needs and learning styles, And like all of the things that are

[jennifer_hayes]: happening at that time of life,

[caroline]: Um, Well, and that's the tricky part is with some
students, it's really obvious and stems. Some students are really

[caroline]: good advocating for their needs and saying like, Hey,
this is what I need. This is what I'm used to. This is what's

[caroline]: provided to me, usually because of the paper work
and all of that, but then a lot of students. you really struggle

[caroline]: with advocating for themselves, which is something
that a lot of adults struggle with right advocating for themselves.

[caroline]: And so when they don't As a teacher, it's hard to
have that time to go like digging through files and things like

[caroline]: that. So that's where it becomes really tricky. Um.
and then I think that's where the parent part of it becomes so

[caroline]: critical. Um is supporting your child through their
learning and through the school system. Is that it kind of falls

[caroline]: on the parents to then be that squeaky wheel for their
child to help bring that to the teacher's attention

[papa_rick]: Sounds like that's a skill that would be really valuable
to teach our kids when ye're thinking about raising kids and

[papa_rick]: parenting them, making sure they know how to go into
a situation from as young an age as possible, and say hey, that's

[papa_rick]: You're going too fast. Can you repeat that or you
know to advocate for themselves and get what they need? That

[papa_rick]: sounds super valuable.

[caroline]: Hundred percent. And like, there's this example that's
often given, like when children have say a nut alergy, For example,

[caroline]: they will

[papa_rick]: M.

[caroline]: like from the age of five be like, Hey, I'm allergic
to not. Don't bring those around me. I can't

[jennifer_hayes]: M.

[caroline]: be with them like, Don't feed that to me right. But
when

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[caroline]: it comes to things like learning and attention D H.
D. it's just totally like whether it be stigma or labels or what

[jennifer_hayes]: M.

[caroline]: have you? It's totally different It. kids aren't comfortable
being like He Struggle with reading. Here's what needs to happen

[caroline]: for me

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: and it's like

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[caroline]: that mind shift right.

[jennifer_hayes]: Giving kids that language because it's very
like when it's life or death, like something like a peanut Allergy

[jennifer_hayes]: can be life or death. The parents starting when
they're like three years old or whenever they get them Alergy

[jennifer_hayes]: tested like I know three year old who have been
like no peanuts, No peanuts, you know,

[caroline]: Exactly

[jennifer_hayes]: and like they,

[papa_rick]: There you go.

[jennifer_hayes]: the parents drill it into them. Like do not
eat peanuts. Like what have we started? Are three and four and

[jennifer_hayes]: five year old? On? These are your needs and

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: Is how you talk about them. So like whether
that's your six year old. You know. Maybe the teacher notices

[jennifer_hayes]: like they're not picking up reading as quickly
as the other kids. That's fine, kids develop at different different

[jennifer_hayes]: times, and so teaching your child. then at six
years old you know, Make sure you let your teacher know if they're

[jennifer_hayes]: going too fast or if this is happening, and
make it normal instead of not talking about it, and like Trying

[jennifer_hayes]: to not make your kid feel bad, or give them
like some kind of stigma about stigma about themselves, Like

[jennifer_hayes]: if you do it in the right way and you normalize
it for them, instead of feeling bad about it, they'll be able

[jennifer_hayes]: to stand up and just ask for their needs to
be met.

[papa_rick]: You know

[caroline]: Exactly

[papa_rick]: that sounds so valuable.

[caroline]: yeah. yeah, exactly. that's right. because as educators
like that's what. That's what we do Right is meeting the needs

[caroline]: of students and of individual learners. but when you
don't know what those are, it's just kind of like hitting a target,

[caroline]: trying to hit a target that you can't really see.

[papa_rick]: Yeah, well, some of it's time consuming. It's not
you know. There's things you can't fix you. You have to cope,

[papa_rick]: because your primary job is how I have to teach something
to a hundred and eighty kids. I can't spend all day on one kid.

[caroline]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: And so that? Yeah, so there's just needs that don't
teachers can't

[caroline]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: meet and just

[caroline]: just

[papa_rick]: need to know how to how to work with. Best. Wow,

[caroline]: For sure. Ah, so if parents go in and say hey, this
is what the learning needs are. Um, you know, this is what's

[caroline]: been done in the past. This is what's really successful.
Um, you know, how can I support you in supporting my child when

[caroline]: they're in your care all day? Right goes a long way.
like, like, Of course, with the school system, it's a lot more

[caroline]: complex than that, but in a nutshell that is like
the best jumping off point. I think

[jennifer_hayes]: O. tell me more, Caroline, about how you help
families Now outside of the school system, how do you help families

[jennifer_hayes]: navigate the education system with their kid?

[caroline]: Yeah, so when families come to me, Um, it can be kind
of one and two things. So as an educational psychologist I do.

[caroline]: I do Ike psycho educational assessments. Um, and I
do provide diagnosis and then accommodations and recommendation

[caroline]: steps to take Going forward. So that does provide
then the official paper work that families can go back to the

[caroline]: school with, And that's what allows the school to
put like an I P anividualized educational plan. Um, get funding

[caroline]: and things like that, so that is one way and that's
kind of the official way, right, if you will to get the paper

[caroline]: working place, like I said, but in the other way,
sometimes parents are hesitant to go through the psycho educational

[caroline]: process. Um, some don't want labels, Uh, some,

[papa_rick]: Hm,

[caroline]: uh, you know, just want to like, kind of try things
on their own before kind of going that route. So then we just

[caroline]: go through strategies, Rick Mendations, things to
think about things To try. we look at different resources together

[caroline]: and then get them started that way.

[jennifer_hayes]: That's so. when you say they want to try something
else, they want to try something besides diagnosis, and I e p

[jennifer_hayes]: in the school and they just want to try Um things
at home. strategies, Uh, tools, you know, like setting up an

[jennifer_hayes]: environment for their kids.

[caroline]: Yeah, exactly exactly. so, Um, some parents will say
you know well, we'll try tutoring at home, whether that be parents

[caroline]: or another tutor, Like you just said Jenny. Right,
Like setting up the environment for success, Um, building habits,

[caroline]: Um, you know, sometimes I'll have it some changing
big habits, and then seeing what kind of gains can be made from

[caroline]: that and how they can as a family, try to apply that
to the school setting without actually involving the school.

[jennifer_hayes]: Interesting. How does that? How often does that
work? Do you like?

[caroline]: Um, I mean, I think both can be successful, right
it? Just it really like it does require work. It does require

[caroline]: time. It does require effort. I think the benefit
to having the school is that then it can be consistent between

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: home and school and parents and teachers can talk.

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: Um, be on the same page. Use the same strategies.

[papa_rick]: Hopefully the parent has the right comprehension
of the situation right there there, doing it on your own and

[papa_rick]: not being a professional editors. Opposed to involving
a professional edit.

[caroline]: Mhm,

[papa_rick]: To get a professional, you kind of have to get a
label. and maybe with paper work, How much option haven't Where

[papa_rick]: am I go And have much opportunity is there to involve
the school without getting the label?

[caroline]: Ll, without the paper, work without the label. Then
we're really at the mercy of the school and they're kind of willingness

[caroline]: to help out,

[papa_rick]: So

[caroline]: but they aren't actually tired legally to doing anything,
so that's where it can be tricky. So sometimes if which, like

[caroline]: you said at the aren't, if it's a small school. Sometimes
they may just have more time to provide that help. Um, so it

[caroline]: can. Yeah, just de On a few different things that
are that are

[papa_rick]: Depends.

[caroline]: really outside of anybody's control.

[papa_rick]: We're really kind of talking about a formal versus
in formal process.

[caroline]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: In a way,

[caroline]: exactly

[papa_rick]: let's let's let's just andle this in formally. it's
not right bad. Okay,

[caroline]: Yeah. exactly exactly.

[jennifer_hayes]: What are some of the reasons that parents have
for wanting to do things in formally so not wanting to pursue,

[jennifer_hayes]: either not pursuing official diagnosis or not
sharing official diagnosis

[caroline]: M. Hm.

[jennifer_hayes]: with the school system? What do you hear? What
are some of the top reasons that parents go that route?

[caroline]: Well, the main one is labels, so not wanting labels,
not wanting you know the outcome of the ment to impact how their

[caroline]: child is seen from their teachers, or to then have
the school make

[papa_rick]: M,

[caroline]: like judgments based on said little for their kid,
So that probably is the main one, but the other one that I had

[caroline]: come up recently is that when you do have a formal
diagnoses, Um, it can then impact potential future employment,

[caroline]: Um.

[jennifer_hayes]: Really?

[caroline]: early now, rarely, um,

[papa_rick]: It follows

[caroline]: and

[papa_rick]: you, Huh,

[caroline]: um. and really, the only time that that would come
into play is like this one client that I've been working with

[caroline]: recently, Um, and he's like an older boy, sixteen,
seventeen, about to rap up high school and sort of go into life

[caroline]: and he's looking at maybe applying like military or
police men. Those kinds of professions. Um, where having some.

[caroline]: It really depends. sometimes. if you have a diagnosis,
that's okay. But if you have a diagnosis, but we're taking medications

[caroline]: or had strategies in place, then you maybe would not
be able to apply for these positions.

[papa_rick]: Okay, you have

[caroline]: So

[papa_rick]: to disclose

[jennifer_hayes]: I

[papa_rick]: that.

[caroline]: but usually it is, it does go down to the labels,

[papa_rick]: Yeah, I've never really heard a good description
of how that worked before I get that. now

[caroline]: M.

[papa_rick]: That's kind of. that's going to be a tough choice
as a parent. You

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: know to not. I don't want to label my kid, but you
may not be now. you're picking and choosing. Now you're playing

[papa_rick]: doctor. You know, it might

[caroline]: M,

[papa_rick]: get. I getting my kid the best care or not.

[caroline]: Hm,

[papa_rick]: That's one of those things that keeps you up at night.

[caroline]: For sure, And I think something that I come back to
time and time again when working with clients is whether or not

[caroline]: there is a diagnosis. Oftentimes the way forward is
the same, So for example, if we're looking at someting, like

[caroline]: dislexcia, Right, formerly called Specific learning
Disorder and reading Um, the way forward is the same and that's

[caroline]: you now looking at the strategies and implementing
those in the prow. Yes, and you do that through like a learning

[caroline]: specialist, Probably or a tutor. Some parents try
to do it on their own. Um, But whether or not there's a diagnosis,

[caroline]: that's probably how you would go forward. so depending
on how much you want the school involved right, but those are

[caroline]: things that you can do on your own For sure.

[jennifer_hayes]: M.

[caroline]: if you,

[papa_rick]: That makes it makes sense to avoid the diagnosis.
If if the path forwards the same, why burden anybody with a diagnosis?

[papa_rick]: Let's let's just do it in forty. Okay, So both

[caroline]: Hm,

[papa_rick]: choices are good and healthy In the right circumstances.

[caroline]: Yeah, yeah, you know, the advantage I think to doing
the full psycho educational assessment is that that does include

[caroline]: a cognitive assessment. So then coming out the other
side, you do really specifically know and have a really in depth

[caroline]: understanding of how your child's brain works, or
if you go through it as an adult, which a lot of adults do how

[caroline]: your own brain works, And then you know Like Really
specifics about? like, Yes, this person is a visual earners Persons,

[caroline]: you know more, A verbal learner and how to approach
that, So that would be one of the main positives of going through

[caroline]: the assessment is. then it kind of becomes easier
to target those teaching and learning strategies because you

[caroline]: know like Okay for this, Re saying, the visual is
going to really be the most helpful. That's what naturally makes

[caroline]: the most sense to the brain. So then you go hard with
them.

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah, I'm also, I think that even though the
path forward is the same regardless because we're basically looking

[jennifer_hayes]: at a child and just saying these are their needs,
since this is how their needs are going to get met. I think the

[jennifer_hayes]: only struggle in that for me would be. That
is the lack of consistency then at school. So are they going

[jennifer_hayes]: to school? Not absorbing any or as much information.
We're feeling lost or feeling. Um, like you know, labeling themselves

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: those things because they're not keeping

[caroline]: yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: up and they're watching other kids in the classroom
do things that they're not doing. An. And then they go home and

[jennifer_hayes]: they have a private tutor who re teaches them
all of those things that they just sat

[caroline]: M, hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: through in class. And yeah, I don't now. I'm
just talking this out loud with. I'm kind of thinking through

[jennifer_hayes]: it out loud and it feels like it feels like
almost like double the work for the child. If they're not getting

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: those integrated services that they need to
learn the way they need to learn at school, or getting to take

[jennifer_hayes]: breaks during tests for things like H. D specifically,
or having someone

[caroline]: Exactly,

[jennifer_hayes]: help them read the questions on the test for
someone with dislexia,

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: or you know,

[caroline]: hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: these, these small adjustments that we can make
for kids. But then I can also see the other side of Like If,

[jennifer_hayes]: if a kid in the classroom, Having the teacher
or an assistant teacher, have to sit with them and help them

[jennifer_hayes]: read through the questions, then the other kids
you know, are they going to get made fun of at recess? Are they

[jennifer_hayes]: you know?

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: Are the labels going to turn into something
that they get bullied for?

[jennifer_hayes]: I don't know.

[papa_rick]: What causes the least? Like any decision? That's
what causes the least harm. You know. At the mercy of circumstances

[papa_rick]: very much, get the consistency thin

[caroline]: M, hm,

[papa_rick]: at at at home and at school. How do you make? So
that's kind of the goal. The base line goal is to have consistency

[papa_rick]: between home and school. How how do you achieve that?

[caroline]: Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly like. Like Jenny just
said right, we want to cut down on time, like when you're spending

[caroline]: like six or seven hours of your day already at school
and then you have to do more like how daring is that, especially

[caroline]: when you have somebody who's struggling and they have
to spend so much more time and energy just trying to make it

[caroline]: through the day than their peers, And then we're asking
them to go home and do probably more Of stuff that they already

[caroline]: don't like. And it's

[jennifer_hayes]: Mhm.

[caroline]: like

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[caroline]: is to be your

[papa_rick]: yeah,

[caroline]: fun time. Now go do more of this stuff that you hate.
Um, so I think like, obviously support like educational assessments.

[caroline]: That's what I do and getting everybody like it takes
a village right, So getting all of our village on the same page,

[caroline]: putting everything in place. Um, like you guys just
said, helps cut down on that time and helps make the time there

[caroline]: more meaningful.

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah, because

[papa_rick]: Interesting

[jennifer_hayes]: someone. so I went through my whole childhood
never being diagnosed Because it wasn't until fairly recently

[jennifer_hayes]: that that there were types of d. h. D assigned.

[caroline]: M. Yes,

[jennifer_hayes]: And so when I was a kid, everything was being
like. Everything that was being tested for was hyper activity

[jennifer_hayes]: and it was usually

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: boys and

[caroline]: yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: so boys who were hyper active got their D D
diagnosis And very rarely did girls ever get theirs because ours

[jennifer_hayes]: was inattentive.

[caroline]: M.

[jennifer_hayes]: Um, and I remember

[caroline]: Hm.

[jennifer_hayes]: getting, and I remember having anxiety and I
remember struggling in school. Um, and I remember, you know,

[jennifer_hayes]: I was a B and C student, Uh, until high school
and then I was at a plus student because strictly out of the

[jennifer_hayes]: fear of God that was put into me of not getting
into the private Univers City, I wanted to go to Um.

[papa_rick]: Motivation.

[jennifer_hayes]: But, but I remember after those four years of
life Raping by to get my age and then I went to college and I,

[jennifer_hayes]: what I did in high school was I. I studied that
like I just like for three or four hours the night before, I

[jennifer_hayes]: would just memorize, memorize, memorize, memorie,
memorize, and then I wouldn't do or think about anything else

[jennifer_hayes]: until I got up, went to school. I wouldn't talk
to anybody until I got to that test and info dumped Nd. Then

[jennifer_hayes]: it was over and that was like that was the constant
wheel that I was on. and Um, and then I went to college and had

[jennifer_hayes]: no

[caroline]: What

[jennifer_hayes]: study skills, Had no time management skills,
had no, just basic

[caroline]: Basil,

[jennifer_hayes]: life skills to manage any kind of course load.
Um, let alone

[caroline]: Hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: a college level reading load studying load.
right, because it's way more than high school, And so the

[caroline]: Hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: crash crash, studying before a test didn't work
any more. So my grades were awful

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: and I And I think I was nineteen, and just like
everybody, just like everybody else in college, I wanted at all.

[jennifer_hayes]: I wanted to be able to study. I wanted to be
able to focus, and when it came time for finals, I needed help

[jennifer_hayes]: and I didn't know what else to do and I, I knew
people were taking at it, so I went to I, On't remember. I don't

[jennifer_hayes]: remember if it was the campus doctor Ever, and
I, you know, answered the questions the way that I was supposed

[jennifer_hayes]: to Um,

[caroline]: Hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: and was diagnosed with a d. H. D and given aderall
And I was like cool.

[caroline]: Yep,

[jennifer_hayes]: great. I did it. Um, not thinking, not taking
the d h D diagnosis seriously, and not realizing that most of

[jennifer_hayes]: the questions I was actually just being honest
about. I wasn't even lying like I was just actually the right

[jennifer_hayes]: answers

[papa_rick]: Uh,

[jennifer_hayes]: also happened to be true.

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: But then I don't know. Throughout my twenties,
I kind of had inklings of like, Maybe I really do have it, but

[jennifer_hayes]: it really wasn't

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: until a couple of years ago, Um, my husband
brought an article to my attention about a d. h. D. and I think

[jennifer_hayes]: his brother had sent it to him or something.
So it was just very random and I read it and I was like

[jennifer_hayes]: O O. that I do all of those things.

[papa_rick]: That's me. That's

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: I suck

[papa_rick]: me. That's

[jennifer_hayes]: it. all

[papa_rick]: me.

[jennifer_hayes]: of those things like more than my peers, more
than other people that are in my life.

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: And I've just

[caroline]: hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: kept it inside and I've always had like an.
I would get anxiety at school and like I would like you know.

[jennifer_hayes]: there's all these different ways that it manifests,
Um, and

[caroline]: Mhm,

[jennifer_hayes]: all these diagnosies that I had received throughout
my life With anxiety and depression and all of those things.

[jennifer_hayes]: I just started like reading and processing that
a couple of years ago and finally went to a psychiatrist who

[jennifer_hayes]: was like, Yeah, you have you have a D.

[caroline]: M, Hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: And so, I just

[papa_rick]: Stock

[jennifer_hayes]: so this, this whole story, Uh, I'm I'm telling
it because Personally feel like There could have been a lot less

[jennifer_hayes]: suffering and I could have felt understood throughout
my childhood and been more capable of saying Hey, I'm struggling

[jennifer_hayes]: with this to

[caroline]: Yep,

[jennifer_hayes]: either my parents or my teachers or you know,
like

[papa_rick]: A

[jennifer_hayes]: the. I needed help with time like I did not
know how to make myself study without an impending immediate

[jennifer_hayes]: deadline, and because

[caroline]: Hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: in it and I even talk now

[papa_rick]: Her failing.

[jennifer_hayes]: to my husband That I'm you know, an entrepreneur
and I'm trying to run a business and there's no one holding me

[jennifer_hayes]: accountable for that like it is. Being an entrepreneur
is already hard for anyone with a

[caroline]: Hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: d. H. D. I am, I am. It's it's literally like
trying to flex a muscle. You don't have to make yourself do something

[jennifer_hayes]: that is mentally painful. It's not. It's not
just like I don't feel like doing it like I Want to do it. I

[jennifer_hayes]: want to do it. It's stuff I want to do. It's
stuff I care about and I want to do it

[caroline]: Hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: and it is still so difficult without the exact
right circumstances and environment and visual cues,

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: and all of the things, Um, and for women also
are, cycles can affect different parts of the month. and like

[jennifer_hayes]: it is a constant battle

[caroline]: Mhm,

[jennifer_hayes]: And a constant trial and error of coping mechanisms
to overcome in trick my brain into doing stuff that that people

[jennifer_hayes]: without a d. h. d can just sit down and a kind
of white knuckle the themselves through it like little menial

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: tasks, like administrative

[papa_rick]: yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: stuff, you know, and there's so anyway, I just
naturally had to figure these things out an adult Long after

[jennifer_hayes]: school

[caroline]: What

[jennifer_hayes]: was over, and I wish that we had had more information
on how eight h d manifests in girls, and someone had seen it

[jennifer_hayes]: and had seen anxiety in my little eight year
old body, instead of an eight year old who just doesn't

[caroline]: He

[jennifer_hayes]: feel like going to school and gone.

[caroline]: and

[jennifer_hayes]: something is going on at school. What

[caroline]: M?

[jennifer_hayes]: is it?

[papa_rick]: Hm,

[caroline]: Hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: and like digging deeper and figuring that out,
and in Getting me a diagnosis, so that there were things in place

[jennifer_hayes]: to help me get my education, you know, and take

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: brain

[papa_rick]: Right,

[jennifer_hayes]: breaks and all of those

[papa_rick]: Despite

[jennifer_hayes]: things.

[papa_rick]: the label, The you know, the A d h. D label is pretty
common. Now

[caroline]: M,

[papa_rick]: you know, maybe

[caroline]: Hm,

[papa_rick]: the stigma or whatever, all the things attached to
that Balanced against the struggle into your thirties to identify

[papa_rick]: what's going on and

[caroline]: Hm,

[papa_rick]: then the struggle. You know what you're what you're
describing about the day to day I call friction, You know, it

[papa_rick]: just takes its swimming through molasses. It's just

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah.

[papa_rick]: harder

[caroline]: Oh

[papa_rick]: takes more work

[caroline]: yeah,

[papa_rick]: to do things that other people do sometimes easier.
and you know having having a leg up on that that that would be

[papa_rick]: a tremendous benefit for the child Circumstances.

[caroline]: M,

[papa_rick]: Eh,

[caroline]: M, for sure for sure, and like Jenny was saying, right
as as a woman as a young girl, it also adds like this whole new

[caroline]: dimension right. Like oftentimes. I hear from parents.
Well, she can't have eight D. because like she can focus and

[caroline]: study for long periods of time, or

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[caroline]: she does get really good grades and she's not in class
during up trouble. So then the teacher is like, No, she'll just

[caroline]: be fine, right. She's just working This and then she'll
be fine Like I hear it all the time and parents hear it all the

[caroline]: time. Um, but

[papa_rick]: M.

[caroline]: but written, and you know, like you said Jenny, The
inattentive type right is really so internal

[jennifer_hayes]: M.

[caroline]: that nobody knows other than the person who's living
it right.

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: Um, and that's where I think it can become really
tricky for for parents and and for teachers, especially right,

[caroline]: Because then when you are faced with that inattentive
piece and nobody's seeing it But the is experiencing it on the

[caroline]: inside, but then you have the people who are like,
really outwardly hyper

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: active that take a lot of time and attention. Um,
it becomes really tricky.

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: So what's a good tip for a parent to make sure their
kid is? Makes them make sure someone is digging down into that.

[papa_rick]: If there's you know when you see somebody present,
How do you? How do you insure is apparent? How do you insure

[papa_rick]: that the diagnosis for your kid is is good, and not
just a function of busy school people. Or you know the teacher

[papa_rick]: hasn't seen that before, Or you know, because

[caroline]: M.

[papa_rick]: there's teachers who have been around forever. There's
teachers who have been there. This is your first year. and so

[papa_rick]: it's apparent how to use shepherd your kid through
the system like that. For that purpose

[caroline]: M. Well, I think as a parent nobody knows your kid
better than you

[jennifer_hayes]: Hm,

[caroline]: and as a parent I think you just have kind of that
internal sense of like something's up.

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: Somethings.

[papa_rick]: Something is going on.

[caroline]: Yes, something is going on and then and then sometimes

[papa_rick]: M.

[caroline]: people like discount what you're saying right,

[jennifer_hayes]: All the time.

[caroline]: Like, like,

[papa_rick]: Dismiss.

[caroline]: like I said before, she'll be fine. E'll be fine.
There's working it out. whatever. But if Down you think know

[caroline]: something needs to be checked out. Um, you know, not
letting other people kind of discount your feelings, and then

[caroline]: seeking out a professional or looking at resources
online and doing a little bit of your own research, if need be,

[caroline]: and then finding a professional who will take you
seriously, because

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah.

[caroline]: there are of course professionals who who also don't
believe in things like a d, h, d, or who brush parents off and

[caroline]: things like that. So If I, as a parent, you really
think that it's warranted to look into something, and that's

[caroline]: what you feel on the inside. Nobody knows your kid
better than you, so take those kind of heart promptings seriously

[caroline]: and seek out professionals.

[papa_rick]: Yeah, that's definitely a listen to your gut and

[caroline]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: learn to Apdvocate for yourself.

[caroline]: Yep,

[papa_rick]: You know something. Nobody else is going to notice
the subtle stuff the way a parent does,

[jennifer_hayes]: M.

[papa_rick]: and

[caroline]: Exactly,

[papa_rick]: so make somebody explain it to you to the point where
you're happy. you're happy that the right thing is being done.

[papa_rick]: Don't

[caroline]: Mhm,

[papa_rick]: take. Don't take a pat on the head is as a final
word, keep pushing,

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: What are

[caroline]: yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: some

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: of the ways? Because so for me it was Um, and
I remember in third grade I would. I would have a stomach ache

[jennifer_hayes]: every day and I would

[papa_rick]: M.

[jennifer_hayes]: either tell my

[caroline]: Me,

[jennifer_hayes]: parents or tell my teacher and basically like
I did it every single day, so it became like the boy who cried

[jennifer_hayes]: wolf and I was just

[caroline]: No,

[jennifer_hayes]: brushed off. Right

[papa_rick]: Do you

[jennifer_hayes]: or it

[papa_rick]: have

[jennifer_hayes]: was?

[papa_rick]: a fever? Go to work, Go

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: school,

[jennifer_hayes]: No fever. Go to school. Um,

[caroline]: Hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: or where Was? Uh? Well, I don't even remember
much past that, But so my question is to you, especially for

[jennifer_hayes]: you know, we have so much more information now
right about the different types of

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: d. H. D. What are some of the

[caroline]: h,

[jennifer_hayes]: ways that?

[caroline]: m,

[jennifer_hayes]: What are some of the ways that an inattentive
type shows up? So what are some of the manifestations that show

[jennifer_hayes]: up instead of clear a d. H. D. symptoms? Um,
how does that

[caroline]: M.

[jennifer_hayes]: show up in kids Who can't quite tell you what's
going on?

[caroline]: Well, it can be so. I mean, like we've been saying,
It's one of those things that's a little bit trickier, right

[caroline]: because it is so internal, but some of the things
are, of course, like the day dreaming right, tuning in and out

[caroline]: of conversation. So this is where parents are Like
where you even listening to me right now? Like what did I just

[caroline]: say right? Um, or things where you give your child
like a to do this like, Hey, go brush your teeth. put your socks

[caroline]: on. Get your home work and let's go N. And you find
them like in their room, playing with leg, and you're like, Did

[caroline]: you not hear what I said and they're like, Oh, like
I knew I came up here for a reason, right, I did

[papa_rick]: Shiny,

[caroline]: the.

[papa_rick]: shiny new thing. What crossed my path?

[caroline]: yeah. yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: And at what

[caroline]: so

[jennifer_hayes]: what age would you expect them to be able to
do a multi step list of actions like that? Because to a certain

[jennifer_hayes]: age to a certain point, if you send a five year
old to their room with a six step list of things to get like,

[jennifer_hayes]: they're going

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: to go play with their Lagos.

[papa_rick]: It's pretty pretty dependable. They're

[caroline]: So

[papa_rick]: not getting to six

[caroline]: yeah, yeah, For sure. So you know for like early elementary,
let's say like like typical morning routine or bedtime routine

[caroline]: stuff right, like brush your teeth. Get dressed,

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: then come back and give new instructions right. so
now that we've done those things, these are the things I need

[caroline]: to do right. But for most people trying, the more
we try to keep in our mind, the more We can kind of forget stuff

[caroline]: right. So of course, with little kids, um, or younger
kids is where sometimes we can bring in support. This is something

[caroline]: like having a white board, let's say of, like tasks
to do, and then they can check off when they've done it, or they

[caroline]: have something concrete to kind of check back to.
And if you have a kid that's not a raider, not a strong raider,

[caroline]: not yet a raider, then you can, instead of writing
words like brush your teeth, you can put A little picture of

[caroline]: a tooth brush right, and then a picture of clothing
or something like that to kind of just cue them along.

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: Something I Dis I discovered at work years ago, Was
it was a book called Getting things done, I think, And

[jennifer_hayes]: I

[papa_rick]: the

[jennifer_hayes]: have

[papa_rick]: method

[caroline]: M

[jennifer_hayes]: that book.

[papa_rick]: is just yeah, Don't don't try to keep, Because that's
what I would do. I used to be real interrupt, driven. I was,

[papa_rick]: I was created starting out to day with a plan and
then there'd be fifteen interruptions and I was very proud of

[papa_rick]: my self for being able to work my way back out of
the unplanned stuff and get

[caroline]: Is man

[papa_rick]: back and still accomplished things. But that's a
lot of work

[jennifer_hayes]: M.

[papa_rick]: Like

[caroline]: For

[papa_rick]: we're

[caroline]: sure.

[papa_rick]: talking

[jennifer_hayes]: hm,

[papa_rick]: about, you know, And so it's you know. the getting
things done thing is, everything goes on a piece of paper. Everything,

[papa_rick]: all

[caroline]: What,

[papa_rick]: the pieces of paper go in a tray, and then you can
go home and forget about it, because when you come back in to

[papa_rick]: work or back home, just look at the top thing on
the tray, you know, and

[caroline]: Mhm,

[papa_rick]: there you go. But there's a little friction there
to get things written down, or you know, in my case, I keep a

[papa_rick]: list of outstanding issues all the time. You know.
It's just

[caroline]: Mhm,

[papa_rick]: like O. Here's my list. Make lists. And if you don't
see me write it down, it didn't happen. You know, I need to.

[papa_rick]: I carry a book. you know or you. Now it's one note.
Then it's like if I don't make a note of it. If I don't put it

[papa_rick]: in the calendar, Just don't count on it. Like, like
caution people about that if it's important, but you, you know,

[papa_rick]: So there's coping mechanisms for it. I

[caroline]: Hm,

[papa_rick]: found that in like forties. I think you

[caroline]: M,

[papa_rick]: know I was forty before I figured that out. if someone
had taught me that in third grade, That would have been a good

[papa_rick]: thing.

[caroline]: Sure, Yeah, for sure. And that's one of those life
skills that I think we sometimes think people are just kind of

[caroline]: born with is like how to manage a time table or how

[papa_rick]: M.

[caroline]: to like use your day planner.

[papa_rick]: hm,

[caroline]: But it is something that that is a learned skill and
that is a useful skill. And some people I guess you know, still

[caroline]: like paper pencil, and some people like a technology
part. I like both because I hate on my phone where I can I see

[caroline]: like one day at a time, or if I look

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[caroline]: at the calendar, I could see the dots, but I'm like
that doesn't mean anything, so I like having like the coso size

[caroline]: like wall calendar

[jennifer_hayes]: M.

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[caroline]: like, Oh yeah, okay, so on

[jennifer_hayes]: Yep,

[caroline]: Thursday this is what I need to do. Whereas, if I
look on my phone and like well, I don't know. I'm only looking

[caroline]: at Monday. Like who cares about Thursday, you know,
So, using these types of things to like, help your child learn

[caroline]: how to organize themselves right and

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[caroline]: Like that. But yeah, but even you know, like you were
just saying, Papik, a lot of

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[caroline]: like the cos. they always carry your own note books
and have talked about this openly carrying around note books.

[caroline]: Don't try to keep anything in your head. Write everything
down and then there it is right

[papa_rick]: Then if you're going, if you pick up, you go in the
hospital for a week or something. When you come back, it's all

[papa_rick]: right there,

[caroline]: There.

[papa_rick]: day timers. I'm thinking, actually thinking about
going back to day time or I'm in it and I hate to carry a day

[papa_rick]: time or I want to be cool and electric and electronic,
but I really prefer the day time or I can go. I can fold out

[papa_rick]: the month or the quarter, or you know you can make
your own little charts. I can't wait for a fund that does that.

[papa_rick]: I need something that changes

[caroline]: Yah.

[papa_rick]: sides. Still. Really He had.

[caroline]: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then

[jennifer_hayes]: Had,

[caroline]: So you know, Another tool that I like for parents
Is you know? like a lot of parents like the stick or chart right?

[caroline]: That's something that teachers used that used in schools
right, but as humans as individuals we do really well with. I

[caroline]: mean, like you said at the beginning, Jenny, like
right, tight short dead lines, But then we also do well when

[caroline]: we have um treats right away or things right away.
So a lot of times when we have like Sticker chart and then the

[caroline]: kid is looking at it and like, Oh no, I need like
twenty five stickers to get like. whatever this Dina sort thing

[caroline]: or whatever it is right,

[papa_rick]: Hm.

[caroline]: we need like we need things to keep us motivated that
are a lot shorter

[jennifer_hayes]: Hm,

[caroline]: than that. So what I like to do is you know again
with like a big, like normal wild size calendar, And then I put

[caroline]: like little post is on the day and then on the day
I'm like, Oh, I've done this, so I get to rip it off and then

[caroline]: as I'm ripping off post it,

[jennifer_hayes]: M.

[caroline]: it's like immediately satis Ing,

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[caroline]: and then like a little treat, whatever that is, and
a little treat might be like two skittles. It might be like five

[caroline]: minutes of Ro blocks time or whatever it is like.
As parents, you know what the best hook is for your child, but

[caroline]: something to kind of keep the motivated while they
work towards like the big goal

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: and building healthy habits. In the meantime,

[papa_rick]: Milestones in project planning

[caroline]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: there's there's. there's chunk. you break things
up into chunks. Sure,

[jennifer_hayes]: I, so I struggle with something that I've I've
Really. That's like, Really, at the forefront of my struggle

[jennifer_hayes]: list right now is that I will you know, do brain
dumps where I'm like I want to do. I need to do this and that

[jennifer_hayes]: you know, and I just like scribble as fast as
I can And

[caroline]: Yeh,

[jennifer_hayes]: then that list is so long that I get overwhelmed
by it and I don't ever look at it again. Um,

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: And so it's actually like more taxing for me
to, Because I don't I don't forget things. It all lives in here

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: For me. it lives in my brain. It's just like
the little things that I need to do things like appointments

[jennifer_hayes]: and phone call. My calendar on my phone is color
coordinated and every second of the day is planned out and none

[jennifer_hayes]: of

[caroline]: Mhm,

[jennifer_hayes]: it ever happens when it's supposed to, But anyway,

[papa_rick]: She's really good at calendar.

[jennifer_hayes]: when?

[papa_rick]: She made me a calendar once.

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah, Well, when so when I'm really bad at sticking
to them though, And because

[caroline]: M,

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: I look at them and I get overwhelmed and I do
the same thing with my list like you will if you were

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: in my office like there's, I've got like two
wall calendars that are three by two feet and one is a year,

[jennifer_hayes]: and one is a month, and I've got sticky notes
all

[papa_rick]: M.

[jennifer_hayes]: over my desk, and I've got like six

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: different note books all around the house, each
with its own pen hooked on the front, so that

[caroline]: Hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: no matter where I'm at in the house, if I have
a thought and I need to write

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: it down, I have a space to do that, but I've
found that If

[papa_rick]: Ere you go.

[jennifer_hayes]: I, if I get up for my day and there's like the
stuff that has to get done that day, And then there's the stuff

[jennifer_hayes]: that I want to get done that day. If I write
it all down,

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: I, I get overwhelmed and I will scroll tik tok
instead, or, or I'll clean the

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: freaking house like I will

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: find some

[papa_rick]: you escape.

[jennifer_hayes]: way to escape it.

[caroline]: M, hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: Like

[papa_rick]: Have you done the? Have you seen the seven Habits
of highly? I keep quoting books. Can we do that without a royalty

[papa_rick]: or anything?

[jennifer_hayes]: You've given me all

[papa_rick]: I

[jennifer_hayes]: these

[papa_rick]: always

[jennifer_hayes]: books

[papa_rick]: do

[jennifer_hayes]: you're mentioning. I have all of them.

[papa_rick]: have. Have. Okay. That's probably why, Because I
find one. What year did I give it to you that

[jennifer_hayes]: I think it was

[papa_rick]: the

[jennifer_hayes]: early

[papa_rick]: quadrant

[jennifer_hayes]: twenties.

[papa_rick]: the four Quadrants helped me a lot. With that. it's
like

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: Okay, here's the important and urgent stuff.

[jennifer_hayes]: Mhm,

[papa_rick]: Everything else is optional and it helps me look
at my list of things to do and go about seventy. Only twenty

[papa_rick]: five. Those are things I really need to worry about
the other seventy five. Nobody's going to die if I don't get

[papa_rick]: those done til next year, So

[jennifer_hayes]: But

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: sitting

[papa_rick]: you

[jennifer_hayes]: down

[papa_rick]: know it helps helps me.

[jennifer_hayes]: and writing out that graph and categorizing
everything, deciding which which box each thing goes into is

[jennifer_hayes]: yet another task on my list.

[papa_rick]: S.

[jennifer_hayes]: That

[papa_rick]: it's friction. It's overhead

[jennifer_hayes]: It's

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: like Yeah

[caroline]: hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: and I, and I mean Caroline.

[papa_rick]: So I don't. really.

[jennifer_hayes]: I would love to hear your insight on that. if
you have any. You're also where you're not here to treat us,

[jennifer_hayes]: But

[papa_rick]: That's right. Hey, I've got a mole here, Doctor

[jennifer_hayes]: no,

[jennifer_hayes]: But do you do you ever run into that with kids?
Like where? It's like all these coping

[caroline]: Last

[jennifer_hayes]: skills and some of them work for some people,
and some of them. actually, it actually makes things harder.

[caroline]: For sure for sure, and I think you know like you guys
just said, pick the top two or three and then go with that right.

[caroline]: Because definitely, if you start like brain jumping
and then you end up with this huge list of stuff like that will

[caroline]: be overwhelming. That would be overwhelming for anybody
right. so pick like, What do I absolutely need to do today? Awesome

[caroline]: and then move on.

[papa_rick]: To manage your expectations. You know, just because
you thought of it and wrote it down that that doesn't make it

[papa_rick]: an emergency.

[caroline]: Yeah, yeah, exactly

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: It's funny that we've run into this on other episodes
where where to pass a skill on to your kids? It's good for you

[papa_rick]: to pick it up to you know Red.

[caroline]: Yes.

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: I get into this

[jennifer_hayes]: modeling,

[papa_rick]: so much because you know we're getting hooked up
in hung up in an oh yeah, yeah, yeah, about our past with a D.

[papa_rick]: D.

[caroline]: Mhm,

[papa_rick]: And you know guy, What if what if our parents had
on this? What if I'd have known this ten years sooner when

[caroline]: Yep,

[papa_rick]: I was raising you? But you know that that's something
to keep in mind Is a little little personal development while

[papa_rick]: you're developing your little one too, Is good.

[caroline]: To present and I think that's so key, and I often
hear parents say like When it comes to like a d, S coaching or

[caroline]: even anxiety, and things like that, parents will say,
You know, I noticed their stuff got better when my stuff got

[caroline]: better,

[papa_rick]: Okay.

[jennifer_hayes]: M,

[papa_rick]: Okay,

[caroline]: So

[jennifer_hayes]: A concept

[papa_rick]: everybody,

[caroline]: yeah,

[papa_rick]: everybody goes.

[jennifer_hayes]: that I coach all parents on is, no matter

[caroline]: Mhm,

[jennifer_hayes]: what child you have like your kids are going
to copy you. they're going to do what you

[caroline]: Hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: do. And so if you

[caroline]: hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: are disregulated or ye, you know, you handle
conflict by yelling. Um, if you you know are disorganized or

[jennifer_hayes]: you're constantly forgetting things, and I mean
some of these things

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: are just like Hum Nature right, and it's going
to happen.

[caroline]: Cor,

[jennifer_hayes]: But any habit as a parent like, do you get up
in the morning and I don't know, Like for me, I lay in bed for

[jennifer_hayes]: a while to wake up, but I want my kids to be
able to like get up and start their day. Um, without laying in

[jennifer_hayes]: bed for an hour and a half, and so like getting
up. getting going. you know, wash My face and you know, journalling

[jennifer_hayes]: me meditating doing some yoga. You know, I often
think about like the morning routine I want to have with my children

[jennifer_hayes]: to set a good example. Um,

[caroline]: Hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: and versus the one that I have on a lot of days
now, and you know different things. But anyway, what I tell what

[jennifer_hayes]: I tell parents is that the most powerful tool
at your disposal is your Own habits. What does your life look

[jennifer_hayes]: like like? Instead of raising kids and being
like well, I want to give my kids everything I didn't have. Well

[jennifer_hayes]: then you need to be the parent you didn't have,
like you need

[caroline]: Hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: to be the parent you needed, and whether that
requires you to read some books or to have a therapist or to

[jennifer_hayes]: um, hire a coach or take some classes like,
I've actually

[caroline]: Yes,

[jennifer_hayes]: heard a lot of parents who took their kid in
It diagnosed and ended up with their own diagnosis because they

[jennifer_hayes]: learned they were like. Oh, maybe I need

[caroline]: Time

[jennifer_hayes]: to get tested.

[caroline]: all the time, I hear it like parents will come in
and then as we're going through like assessment results and I

[caroline]: talk about like steps to take, going forwards and
all of that. That is the point where a lot of times parents will

[caroline]: be like. I need to come in for an assessment with
you, because you could have written this about me

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: like all the time, and then something that that I've
heard people say recently is like heal from your own stuff, so

[caroline]: that

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: your kid Don't need to heal from you,

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: Yes,

[caroline]: which is like, Oh, as a parent

[jennifer_hayes]: yeah,

[caroline]: like,

[jennifer_hayes]: tingles.

[caroline]: Yes, Yes,

[papa_rick]: Rational trauma and yeah, sure,

[caroline]: So yeah, I mean, I mean we all I could do our own
work right, but definitely as a parent having that awareness

[caroline]: of like, Oh, yeah, like you know, if I'm setting up
these bad habits, what is that teaching these little people going

[caroline]: forward right?

[papa_rick]: Especially unconsciously. You know kids, kids, kids
do what we do. not what we say. you know, even if you.

[caroline]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: now. If you,

[caroline]: exactly

[papa_rick]: if you know better, you need to,

[caroline]: exactly.

[papa_rick]: you need to work on your own habits.

[caroline]: Yeah.

[papa_rick]: Very,

[jennifer_hayes]: I also

[papa_rick]: I see in the notes, Go ahead, Tweedy.

[jennifer_hayes]: Okay. Go ahead.

[papa_rick]: So there's a La. here. I was just gonna go ahead.
Go ahead. I just read. I was getting back on the list.

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah. Well,

[caroline]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: Cut that in Italy,

[jennifer_hayes]: so so Caroline, when you and I were talking
on the phone, you know, preparing for the podcast, we talked

[jennifer_hayes]: about some of the of the values or beliefs or
even researched back methods that we

[caroline]: And

[jennifer_hayes]: share. and

[caroline]: hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: Um, a lot of a lot of it overlaps with relational
paranting, which is what I'm trying to tea, Parents, and when

[jennifer_hayes]: it comes to a diagnosis, we've been focused
a lot on D. D. but we know there's a lot of other diagnosis out

[jennifer_hayes]: there that

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: are very common. Um.

[caroline]: Hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: autism dislexia, You know, learning delays,
developmental delays of all kinds, and I think, but it's just

[jennifer_hayes]: it's important to spend a few minutes talking
about how, even though these are a diagnosis, for Me,

[jennifer_hayes]: the more people I know, the more people I know
with these diagnosis and on some spectrum the

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: diagnosis

[papa_rick]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: and for me it just it just

[caroline]: hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: re affirms that humanity. there is no Typical
or normal. There's no such thing as normal. Everyone is on some

[jennifer_hayes]: kind of spectrum and everyone

[caroline]: Hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: is has different ways of learning things in
different ways of doing things in different ways that the neurons

[jennifer_hayes]: and their brains connect. And and you know how
there's more than one right way to do things. And but our school

[jennifer_hayes]: system to bring this back to education. Specifically,
our school system is set up in a way that serves like one type

[jennifer_hayes]: Of person,

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: and then everybody

[caroline]: hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: else is that outside of that type of learner
is requires an I p in order to get

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: their needs met. Um,

[papa_rick]: Bold curve.

[jennifer_hayes]: And so this is something on our last episode
we were talking to Sarah about is that the education system was

[jennifer_hayes]: created to produce factory workers. The current
education system

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: M, which was created to to create factor Workers
in a time when there was a very high need for factory workers.

[jennifer_hayes]: But that is not the world we live in any more.
And so we are. Now you know a lot of educators, Um, or people

[jennifer_hayes]: who work with the education system, but outside
of it are trying to help schools figure out how to um transition

[jennifer_hayes]: their care model to a more child centered individualized
Ay of

[caroline]: Mhm,

[jennifer_hayes]: serving students. And I'm just curious

[caroline]: hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: Like what is what is your take on that? what
is your insight on that? Like what do you see happening in education?

[jennifer_hayes]: Um, as it evolves over the next ten or twenty
years, Um, because we already have a teacher shortage Like So

[jennifer_hayes]: like

[caroline]: M.

[jennifer_hayes]: what does this look

[caroline]: For sure,

[jennifer_hayes]: like? you know?

[caroline]: Yeah, Yeah, and I don't think that anybody really
has a clear answer to that or really

[jennifer_hayes]: Right,

[caroline]: like a clear path forward right,

[jennifer_hayes]: yeah,

[caroline]: But

[jennifer_hayes]: yeah,

[caroline]: I think that you know an educational programs and
teacher development and things like that. you learn a lot about

[caroline]: multiple intelligences. Um, and I think that teaching
practices now. and and I think it's not just about teaching practices

[caroline]: at the point, but the important part is Assessment
practices right

[jennifer_hayes]: Hm,

[caroline]: of getting that knowledge out of the student and knowing
that they have the information that they need. that doesn't have

[caroline]: to be a multiple choice test, though, right, for example,
or a long nouncearch, As long as you know that they know the

[caroline]: corricular outcomes that really is the key.

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: and like you were just saying, that stotational system
was built with a certain goal in mind, But when I'm working with

[caroline]: students and parents and thinking about, like all
these different kinds of learners, I think a really good representation

[caroline]: of it and you know you may have seen this online is
like, If we think about the test is climbing a tree right, if

[caroline]: you're a monkey, climbing the tree is not going to
be an issue. And

[jennifer_hayes]: Right,

[caroline]: that is what the educational system is right. But
the fact is we're not on monkeys, right, We have like sharks

[caroline]: and jerafsbolvs. And what have you? But the test is
still climbing a tree. Well, none of those other animals climb

[caroline]: the tree, so they'll fail and then they'll

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: go forward thinking their failures, But that's not
it at all. They have different

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[caroline]: skill sets, different talents, different ways of showing
their knowledge,

[jennifer_hayes]: M.

[caroline]: So that's

[papa_rick]: That's

[caroline]: how

[papa_rick]: a great

[caroline]: I like.

[papa_rick]: analogy.

[caroline]: Yeah, right, just kind of makes sense, but I do think
that is where the different set aided the

[jennifer_hayes]: Okay,

[caroline]: different rentiated Casion comes in to help meet the
needs of our of our students. And we do have some programs right,

[caroline]: like montessori wall door for those programs, But
again that's really not main stream. Those are usually very

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: very small, very private schools,

[jennifer_hayes]: And very expensive.

[caroline]: Um, and very expensive. exactly exactly.

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah, have you seen?

[papa_rick]: That's what it comes down to sometimes is

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah?

[papa_rick]: you know, there's a lot of things most teaching emotional
in intelligence in kids and helping with substance abuse. And

[papa_rick]: you know there's ways to we know ways to deal with
better and more effective ways to deal with things, but they're

[papa_rick]: expensive to implement, you know in the public

[caroline]: Hm.

[papa_rick]: schools And

[caroline]: yeah,

[papa_rick]: so parents are kind of left left of their own.

[jennifer_hayes]: Well, there's

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: a segment of public schools that where there's
low socio economic students

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: and their only

[papa_rick]: right,

[jennifer_hayes]: resource is the public schools resources. And
so they don't

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: have the option to hire a tutor. They don't
have the option to get their kid resources outside of what the

[jennifer_hayes]: school can provide. And so Um, if you're in
a low socio economic community, your school is not getting the

[jennifer_hayes]: tax dollars that

[caroline]: M,

[jennifer_hayes]: Another

[caroline]: yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: school might be getting, And so they might not
have the programs and the staff, And you know all of those things

[jennifer_hayes]: available as well. And so then were you know
we're getting into inequality? You know, we're getting into a

[jennifer_hayes]: lot of

[papa_rick]: Shoal

[jennifer_hayes]: pieces

[papa_rick]: engineering.

[jennifer_hayes]: there. Yeah,

[papa_rick]: and yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: um, and then there's

[papa_rick]: Which is why it's important for parents to be good
advocates

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah.

[papa_rick]: and be as knowledgable as possible and understand
their own stuff. And sure, M

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah, That's also why we need the school systems
to like the govern. That there's a level of government responsibility

[jennifer_hayes]: in stepping

[caroline]: Hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: into the school. You know the way the school
systems are set up, and I don't know enough about how taxes get

[jennifer_hayes]: allocated. Nd. I'm sure that there's the state
tax. You know. property tax goes towards your school system,

[jennifer_hayes]: Ms. And that's regulated. Is that regulated
by the state? Is that regulated by the federal government, Like

[jennifer_hayes]: you know, and who decides which schools get
how much And I know it's like by area and all of that. But how

[jennifer_hayes]: do we even that playing field? Because you have
kids growing up in a school system where it's a five thousand

[jennifer_hayes]: persons school and they have a freaking olympic
swimming pool, and you know a ten trillion dollar computer lab.

[jennifer_hayes]: And then you have kids Growing up in a school
out in rural Kansas, And there's twenty kids in the graduating

[jennifer_hayes]: class and they have like reading, writing and
arithmetic, And that's it, you know, And

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: so there's you know.

[papa_rick]: Kind of built into the system. I'll

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: have to. I'll have to pass along to you the education
I got on school finance on the school board some day, at least

[papa_rick]: how it varies by state, But that's

[caroline]: M,

[papa_rick]: exactly the case is you know some people are struggling
to hire. They don't have so much money for teachers and administrators,

[papa_rick]: so they don't get the cream of the crop, and and
then resources. And so that's you know. It's if you're in that

[papa_rick]: situ Ation, it's even more important that that you
Everything you can to be the best parent you can, especially

[papa_rick]: with dealing with a big system like the schools you
know, which

[caroline]: M,

[papa_rick]: has a

[caroline]: hm,

[papa_rick]: lot of inertia with it when you walk into it, you
know, they kind of have the ability to say. Here's the thing.

[papa_rick]: I liked what you said, Caroline about assessment,
not standards assessment practices

[caroline]: M,

[papa_rick]: To back

[caroline]: hm,

[papa_rick]: to making sure, did they? You know, I have a feeling
about my kid and I am Not getting an answer That seems helpful

[papa_rick]: and and

[caroline]: Hm,

[papa_rick]: helps with consistency between school and home, and
you know, keep digging. Keep pushing. because it can be a struggle.

[papa_rick]: a real struggle.

[caroline]: Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly yeah. Like I mean, everything
that you know that we just mentioned are things that really as

[caroline]: parents as citizens are kind of out of our control.
Those are education is very top down. Right comes from the government.

[caroline]: So so all you have is a parent is sometimes relying
on on yourself and your own your own resources. Right, whatever

[caroline]: that means, educating yourself and then being the
best advocate for your kid that you can be

[jennifer_hayes]: Have you these dogs? I swear. Um, have you ever
had to have? Have you ever? Well, let me ask this first. Do you?

[jennifer_hayes]: Are you part of Like When

[caroline]: Like.

[jennifer_hayes]: when families come to you Do? are you ever then
in touch with their schools, like their administration helping

[jennifer_hayes]: like. Do you then come to the school for an
I P. meeting? You're there and your part of that, or do you pass

[jennifer_hayes]: it off to the school psychologist who takes
that information and helps create the I. P. Like how directly

[jennifer_hayes]: in contact with schools are you? Yeah?

[caroline]: So because I work privately. Basically I'm not involved
with the school at all, or very little, Um, and in one of the

[caroline]: things that people who come to me, families that come
to me, Um, Sometimes they don't want to share things with the

[caroline]: school. Like for all everything we've been talking
about from the beginning, so

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: sometimes they say like, Don't contact the teacher
at all. I want to keep this between us, And then when Finish

[caroline]: the report, I give it to parents, and then it becomes
up to them to share it with the school. Most do it right away,

[caroline]: Some want to kind of sit on it. think about it, reflect,
see what they can do on their own. On occasion, I will have parents

[caroline]: who they hate Like I got this great information from
you. I can't relate to them like this is the language I know,

[caroline]: which isn't the world I know. And so sometimes I will
go in if the school is willing to meet with me. Um, and have

[caroline]: a meeting. Discuss Findings, you discussed with the
skill. What's possible going forward. But as somebody who works

[caroline]: privately, that doesn't happen a whole lot.

[jennifer_hayes]: So you have you ever? Have you ever had to either
really push a team at a in a school system to either take the

[jennifer_hayes]: family seriously or take the child's need seriously,
Or have you ever had to really like? Had a really difficult case

[jennifer_hayes]: with a family where you had to really help them
fight back or advocate like. How often does that? Have you seen

[jennifer_hayes]: that happen where a school pushes back or doesn't
want to implement an I? P.

[caroline]: So for the most part, Um, educators are educators
because they love kids and they want to see them be successful.

[caroline]: and for the most part the feed back I get from teachers
is tell me what to do.

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: I want to help. What I don't know what to do. I will
do just about anything to

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: But

[caroline]: help this kid in this family.

[papa_rick]: yeah,

[caroline]: Just want to put that out there. That

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: is usually

[jennifer_hayes]: yeah,

[caroline]: feedback that I get right

[jennifer_hayes]: yeah,

[caroline]: very rarely. but a couple of times I have heard from
schools, Kind of like we talked about at the beginning right.

[caroline]: I don't know that this kid's really struggling that
much. Um, you know, those types of comments only a couple of

[caroline]: times in the time that I have been doing this has
not come up, and I think that that may be due to those like budgetary

[caroline]: constraints or reflection on their student population,
and things like that again, very very rarely like maybe twice,

[caroline]: Has that ever happened? It's unfortunate. Um, and
then you know, feed back to parents At that point is what are

[caroline]: you getting out of this school what you want And is
this school really the best fit for your family? Very

[papa_rick]: Here

[caroline]: rarely

[papa_rick]: you go.

[caroline]: does that conversation happen, but sometimes as parents
you have to wonder like, Um, and I, you know, asked myself the

[caroline]: same question for my kid. Right, Is this school meeting
or needs as a family? Is the school meeting my kids needs as

[caroline]: a learner

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: well, no,

[papa_rick]: so that's a good point. I mean, ultimately you're
in control

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: as the

[caroline]: M.

[papa_rick]: parent there.

[caroline]: Hm,

[papa_rick]: so there's there's generally something you can do
next.

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: And there's

[caroline]: for

[jennifer_hayes]: so

[caroline]: sure

[jennifer_hayes]: outside the public school system. The systems
I'm aware of are obviously private schools, obviously cost money

[jennifer_hayes]: hard to get into, Et cetera Um, charter schools,
similar situations. Sometimes sometimes they're free,

[caroline]: Who?

[jennifer_hayes]: Um,

[papa_rick]: Sometimes,

[jennifer_hayes]: home

[papa_rick]: scholarship,

[jennifer_hayes]: schooling, home schooling, some kind of home
school cohort Where there's like a neighborhood. You know, Several

[jennifer_hayes]: families

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: in a neighborhood will come to Ther um, and
they'll either trade off who you know which house the kids

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: go to during the week, and

[caroline]: yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: and the parents will take turns, or they will
hire someone, a teacher or an educator or a child care professional

[jennifer_hayes]: to teach the material and help you know, help
the kids with that, M. And then there's online schooling. Um,

[jennifer_hayes]: and I didn't even know that was a thing, and
there's free. So it's free online public school and I've seen

[jennifer_hayes]: kid Who thrive with that.

[papa_rick]: Really,

[jennifer_hayes]: Um, and absolutely they are like they can sit
down to their computer for two or three hours a day. get their

[jennifer_hayes]: homework assignment, get it done, and then they've
got there the rest of their day to just be a kid, and like

[caroline]: Uh,

[jennifer_hayes]: you know,

[papa_rick]: And

[jennifer_hayes]: live

[papa_rick]: get

[jennifer_hayes]: their

[papa_rick]: on

[caroline]: yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: life

[papa_rick]: with it

[jennifer_hayes]: and help cook, and you know, pick up more

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: life skills that will serve you know, serve
them down the road versus just

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: like sitting in a classroom Now for six

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: or seven hours, and then coming home and doing
home work or whatever. But there's different like I don't know

[jennifer_hayes]: that I would have benefited from online schooling.
I think that I would have had to have someone sit there with

[jennifer_hayes]: me the whole time.

[caroline]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: Specially young, especially young. later

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: on college. I can imagine doing college that way.
I

[caroline]: Yeah.

[papa_rick]: don't know before college where

[caroline]: Well,

[papa_rick]: it would have kicked in

[caroline]: I think like if the pandemic has taught us anything
right, If you're an online learner, then it works for you. And

[caroline]: if you're not then it really does not.

[jennifer_hayes]: I doesn't. yeah, yeah.

[caroline]: Yeah, that's it.

[papa_rick]: O school During the pandemic wasn't horrible for
everybody. Is what I'm taking away from this. There were

[caroline]: Bsoutelyeah.

[papa_rick]: people

[caroline]: correct.

[papa_rick]: who were just fine with that.

[caroline]: Yeah, Yeah, because like

[papa_rick]: It's

[caroline]: Jenny

[papa_rick]: good to

[caroline]: was

[papa_rick]: know.

[caroline]: just saying, for some kids, it is great like I'm going
to sit down. I'm goin a do what I need to do. Crank it out and

[caroline]: then I can move on.

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah, Then there's other kids who don't learn
that way and need different

[caroline]: Yeah.

[jennifer_hayes]: you now tactile learning, social learning, et
cetera Amerceove learning, And then there's also, I think the

[jennifer_hayes]: pandemic more than anything. I mean, it affected
the kids for sure, but I think it also affected Uh households

[jennifer_hayes]: where both parents worked outside the home,
and or if

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: a parent worked from home, But then they all
of a Sudnen had their kid home all day instead of going to school

[jennifer_hayes]: like there was a mass wave of wind. And who
left the work for us during the pandemic because they had to.

[jennifer_hayes]: Someone had to stay home with the kids while

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: the kids were in school Online.

[caroline]: yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: so there's

[papa_rick]: we're

[jennifer_hayes]: also

[papa_rick]: still

[jennifer_hayes]: that

[papa_rick]: feeling the

[jennifer_hayes]: public

[papa_rick]: repecutions.

[jennifer_hayes]: school and school can also be like It's it's
It's child care right if your both

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: parents are working full time or part time

[caroline]: yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: or whatever like school is. also so then it
becomes like Okay, Well, this school isn't working. You know,

[jennifer_hayes]: the parents

[caroline]: Hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: have to shift their life set up in order To
accommodate a child's needs.

[papa_rick]: That's a great perspective. I would. I don't know
that that thought would have ever occurred to me. you know. very.

[papa_rick]: I was very in the box. It's like we were out in the
country. And and where else would we have? How else would we

[papa_rick]: have done school if we really didn't like the school
district we were in

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: Mhm,

[papa_rick]: That. it's nice now that that it's possible to be
more innovating now, maybe then

[caroline]: Hm,

[papa_rick]: than we were then at school.

[caroline]: M, Hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: So well, so Caroline, I want to make sure that
we talk a little bit. So you, you help families navigate the

[jennifer_hayes]: educational system, But you, also, you do more
than that and tell us a little bit more about what you do and

[jennifer_hayes]: the populations that you serve now with with
your with your business?

[caroline]: For sure, Yeah, so definitely assessments still make
up a big part of what I do. but parent coaching, Um, and specifically,

[caroline]: like women coaching H. D coaching. Sometimes they
have their own diagnosis. Sometimes they're coming in to support

[caroline]: a child with a diagnosis or suspected diagnosis. Um,
and so kind of coaching around that because people with a d h

[caroline]: d are often functioning in this elevated state a lot,
I do a lot of Nicol hypnotherapy with clients to work on

[papa_rick]: M.

[caroline]: calming the nervous system right, working with the
Vegas nerve and all of those things naturally helping H. D. right.

[caroline]: Not everybody wants medication, though, if you do,
that's perfectly great to. Um. So that is a big part of what

[caroline]: I do. and then also, I mean trans part of the trans
affirming community, And so I do work with several Members of

[caroline]: the l, d b, t, Q community as well.

[jennifer_hayes]: Do you so with hypnotherapy and Vegas nerve?
Are you? Are you doing hypnotherapy sessions with people as a

[jennifer_hayes]: form of healing or walking them through things
like. What does that look like for D D treatment?

[caroline]: Yeah, so so we can meet either of those right. Some
of it is just like positive affirmations of kind of re programming,

[caroline]: kind of that unconscious mind because a lot of people
like women, especially comin right. I'm not smart. I'm not good

[caroline]: at that.

[jennifer_hayes]: M.

[caroline]: I can't do that.

[papa_rick]: M.

[caroline]: None of that is true. So Re shaping that and then
some of it just is Processing That anxiety may be a little bit

[caroline]: of depression in those types of things.

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah, Vegas nerve stuff is that's It's so it's
so effective. Um,

[caroline]: M.

[jennifer_hayes]: I've only become

[caroline]: hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: aware of it the last couple of years, but that
Yeah, that's highly effective. so I'm just yeah. That's cool

[jennifer_hayes]: that you do that.

[caroline]: Yes,

[papa_rick]: Yeah, I wouldn't find out more about that and I've
heard. I've heard of people fainting. I've run into instances

[papa_rick]: of the vat, the vagus nerve giving you trouble before.
I haven't thought about it in a in a psychological sense too,

[caroline]: M,

[papa_rick]: as doing a meditation or a calm man,

[caroline]: M.

[papa_rick]: deliberately calming, intentionally calming

[caroline]: Yep,

[papa_rick]: vagus nerve issue. That's interesting.

[caroline]: Yeah, and part of the part of the reason I think the
clinical hypmotherapis is is so effective. I, kind of like we

[caroline]: said at the beginning is having that accountability
person. It. we all know that we need to kind of take that time

[caroline]: to mind and all of that, but most of us don't like

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: even myself, and I know better, so when you

[papa_rick]: It's

[caroline]: have

[papa_rick]: easy

[caroline]: like

[papa_rick]: to do

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: so, If I like that person's accountability person
and they know they have to show up with me for this session,

[caroline]: then we kind Do that together. And really, how I like
to think of it is you're not actually doing anything. You just

[caroline]: really need to show up for yourself and then I do
the work

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: as a clinical hypnotherapist

[papa_rick]: You go.

[caroline]: so

[papa_rick]: there you

[caroline]: it

[papa_rick]: go.

[caroline]: can't possibly

[papa_rick]: good frame.

[caroline]: get any easier than that.

[jennifer_hayes]: That's true.

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah. Well, so I have

[papa_rick]: I saw

[jennifer_hayes]: one.

[papa_rick]: a note here before.

[jennifer_hayes]: Okay,

[papa_rick]: It was the same thing I've seen in this. I have this
this bullet

[jennifer_hayes]: It's fine.

[papa_rick]: point attachment, parenting. That's just begging
the hecate,

[jennifer_hayes]: Oh, so we. I put that bullet point on there.
because you, because we had touched on just shared values. So

[jennifer_hayes]: you are a parent And so we

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: talked about the importance of Um, you know,
and there's there's. I think, there's a negative connotation

[jennifer_hayes]: to a traditional definition of attachment parenting,
meaning that your child has to be literally attached to you at

[jennifer_hayes]: all times or something. Um, but attachment

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: parenting and relational parenting have a lot
in common in the in the responsive, meeting the emotional and

[jennifer_hayes]: mental needs of children, and that heavily overlaps

[caroline]: Hm,

[jennifer_hayes]: with educational needs, Right how we learn,
because if we don't have a powerful parental or primary care

[jennifer_hayes]: giver, healthy attachment or relationship with
Um, with our parents, Then stepping out into the social and academic

[jennifer_hayes]: world can be even more taxing, even more difficult
for children who M who don't have healthy relational skills or

[jennifer_hayes]: don't have a secure attachment figure, Because
then they're not only feel like they're on their own to handle

[jennifer_hayes]: life in the home,

[caroline]: Oh,

[jennifer_hayes]: Um,

[caroline]: right,

[jennifer_hayes]: but they then step out into the world and have
no sense of stability under them to approach. You know, diff,

[jennifer_hayes]: Colt things. Ah, so that's that's why I threw
that bullet point on there, but I would love to hear Caroline,

[jennifer_hayes]: your perspective in your personal life being
apparent with with these concepts,

[caroline]: Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that really
has impacted me the most as a parent. and like we talked about

[caroline]: before the podcast You now, attachment parenting has
gotten kind of this weird reputation, Like

[jennifer_hayes]: M.

[caroline]: celebrities have said done different things that have
made it seem like kind of weird right. Like attachment

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: parenting doesn't mean your breast feeding till your
kid is seven, or whatever.

[jennifer_hayes]: Right, right,

[papa_rick]: Not that there's anything wrong with that

[caroline]: Not that there's anything wrong with that. If that
is how you choose to parent, Um, but where did we land or we

[caroline]: allowed to say? like names and authors and stuff.

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: Okay,

[jennifer_hayes]: yeah,

[caroline]: So so shaping my view of attachment parenting is Canadian
psychologist, out of British Columbia, his name is Dr. Gordon

[caroline]: New Felt, who wrote Holding on to your kids, just
one of the most I think well known books on attachment parenting.

[caroline]: Um,

[jennifer_hayes]: M.

[caroline]: he talks about how as apparent you really need to
be your kids rock. Because

[jennifer_hayes]: Hm,

[caroline]: like Jenny, you know how you said when the kid goes
out into the world, We don't know what's going to come with them,

[caroline]: Piers, Sometimes Are you know your best friend and
then the next date? they're like spreading nasty rumors about

[caroline]: you. So if kids are left to attach to their friends,
then their rock one day is what's like trying to take them out

[caroline]: the next. So as a parent to be, Um, you know, your
kids really is all that means to me. And why I think that's that's

[caroline]: so important. Now you would hear people say Well,
you know, fifty years ago we just called that good parentingumwha

[caroline]: Which maybe is the case. but now

[jennifer_hayes]: Disagree,

[caroline]: that's what.

[jennifer_hayes]: I think fifty years ago there were a lot of
parents who wanted who the model was. Make your kids tough. Don't

[jennifer_hayes]: let your kids

[caroline]: M.

[jennifer_hayes]: be wines like toughen your kids up,

[caroline]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: and so that

[caroline]: for sure.

[jennifer_hayes]: they can face a cruel world, and I say,

[papa_rick]: Great book

[jennifer_hayes]: and the

[papa_rick]: title.

[jennifer_hayes]: research

[papa_rick]: Don't let your

[jennifer_hayes]: says,

[papa_rick]: kids be wines.

[jennifer_hayes]: That was the language back then. As far as I
know, I don't

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: know. I wasn't alive. But but, but the research
has shown time and time again that What actually helps kids face

[jennifer_hayes]: difficulty in the world is being shown how to
navigate difficulty in a healthy, emotionally respectful way

[jennifer_hayes]: in the house and being responded

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: to with love and kindness. Um,

[caroline]: Yep,

[jennifer_hayes]: and being taught then healthy skills to work
through hard emotions, not just shut up your fine, move on with

[jennifer_hayes]: your life,

[caroline]: M.

[jennifer_hayes]: Because then it all,

[caroline]: yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: just it all still lives inside of you. It doesn't
move, it doesn't, It doesn't move and process and get out of

[jennifer_hayes]: your body. It just continues to be Pushed and
shoved and packed in. and then you turn twenty five and have

[jennifer_hayes]: a mental breakdown one day, and you wonder why

[papa_rick]: It

[caroline]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: gets to be a habit. you know.

[caroline]: yeah, that

[jennifer_hayes]: Not

[caroline]: drink

[jennifer_hayes]: speaking about personal experience.

[jennifer_hayes]: So Yes,

[caroline]: That's right. We need to feel the fields right so
that we can address them and then move on

[jennifer_hayes]: And being being a rock for someone means they
can lean on you

[caroline]: M.

[jennifer_hayes]: right.

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[caroline]: hm,

[papa_rick]: which takes time and energy and you know as a parent
you're there already anyway.

[caroline]: M, M. yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: Well, I could. I have like seven different tangents
happening in my head right now, but we are at. We were at an

[jennifer_hayes]: hour and twenty minutes. So

[caroline]: We.

[jennifer_hayes]: is there? are there any last thoughts, Caroline
that you have that you want to share before we wrap things up

[caroline]: Um, if I had to share one message, it would be nobody
knows your kid better than you. Nobody is in a better position

[caroline]: than you to be their advocate. That's it.

[papa_rick]: Yeah,

[jennifer_hayes]: Lutely,

[papa_rick]: that's a good. I like having a list. like, like a
short list of little pithy savings To keep in mind is apparent.

[papa_rick]: things are so busy. You know, it's

[caroline]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: nice to have a couple of like to have a short list
of touch ones. It's like it's is urgent

[jennifer_hayes]: M.

[papa_rick]: and important. No one. no one better off the, especially
if you're sitting there across the table from a teacher that

[papa_rick]: doesn't know how to deal with your kid.

[caroline]: M,

[papa_rick]: and

[caroline]: hm,

[papa_rick]: you're advocating for. you're getting the head pat
on. He'll be fine.

[caroline]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: It's like, Yeah, I'm the expert here. Thank you very
much.

[caroline]: Right,

[papa_rick]: right.

[caroline]: exactly exactly.

[papa_rick]: I like that.

[jennifer_hayes]: Ove. it awesome. Well, thank you so much for
being here with us today.

[papa_rick]: Oh,

[caroline]: Thanks for having me, guy,

[jennifer_hayes]: Yeah,

[papa_rick]: Terrific to Meta.

[caroline]: You, too.

[jennifer_hayes]: All right, everybody, we will see you next week.