The Relational Parenting Podcast

Jennie (00:04.434)
Mine is, doesn't, there we go, there you are, okay.

Alrighty, we're live. Welcome back everybody to the Relational Parenting podcast. We have our guest this week, Mike Rucker, and he is an organizational psychologist and behavior scientist, along with a whole bunch of other roles that you play in your life, including parent. Is that right?

Mike (00:30.502)
That's right, yeah. Daughter and a son. And we're going into spring break, so it's an exciting week. My daughter's 12 and my son's about nine. He's eight right now, but going on nine.

Jennie (00:31.987)
Welcome. A daughter and a son. Oh yeah. How old are they?

Jennie (00:42.898)
Okay. In the thick of it, in the thick of it. Yeah. Well, welcome. I'm so excited to have you here. I'm so excited to talk about this book that you wrote. And I think there's going to be so, there's going to be so many little golden nuggets. I just know it, that relate from your book to just life in general, but also into parenting.

Mike (00:46.788)
Yeah.

Mike (01:08.934)
Yeah, I'm excited to get into it.

Jennie (01:11.026)
Yeah. Well, so tell me, tell me how you came to write the fun habit.

Mike (01:18.854)
So the back story is I've been looking at positive psychology for some time. I was lucky enough to be invited to be an early member of kind of the cohort of academics and practitioners in the space. For folks that don't know what positive psychology is, essentially it's a facet of psychology that was created about the beginning of the millennium.

to use psychology as a tool for betterment. So up until that point, clinical psychology had primarily been a tool for therapists or folks that were trying to treat some sort of deficit or improve mental hygiene. And things like gratitude and mindfulness were always on the margins. And so we began to talk about those things as a cohort. But the focus was really on happiness at the beginning, because it was important at that time, because we weren't talking about happiness.

do it. But what happened over time was we began to kind of over emphasize this idea of happiness, right? Like, um, now we have a word for it, right? It's better understood. And we talk about toxic positivity, but back then, you know, we didn't have the world happiness report and you know, things of that nature. And some of these tools were getting picked up by quote unquote life coaches and essentially over prescribed. And we were.

teaching people, right? Like that happiness should be this outcome, this thing that you strive for. And paradoxically, what we found, you know, over time was that that directive, like kind of pushing people in that direction, paradoxically, we're making some of the most unhappy people and myself included. Like, so essentially the problem is, right, when you make happiness, this thing that you're trying to achieve, it becomes something out.

Jennie (02:48.242)
Yeah.

Jennie (03:03.024)
Yeah.

Mike (03:11.686)
in the distance and we didn't understand this, right? Like, cause okay, great. That's kind of this carrot that makes you, you know, change some of the things you do, look for life hacks and things like that. But subconsciously it makes you always see happiness out in the distance and you start to ruminate on the gap between where your feet are and where you believe happiness is and forget that it's really where your feet are. And now what we know is that that rumination.

Jennie (03:23.27)
Yeah.

Jennie (03:37.298)
Yes.

Mike (03:41.51)
starts to bleed into your identity. So folks that were really overly concerned with how happy they are, how they compare against their neighbors. So sometimes it happens insidiously, like at the subconscious level, they'll just keep looking at that gap and go, I must be an unhappy person, because happiness is always over there. And once it gets that bad, then there's this weird thing about our identity, right, where we start to look for.

artifacts like most people are familiar with confirmation bias now you start to like oh Well, the world's just not that great of a place right and you know and just very strange pathological things begin to happen and So that was kind of the beginning of the book the impetus for me was unfortunately Quite suddenly in 2016. I lost my younger brother to a pulmonary embolism and around the same time I

Jennie (04:34.226)
Mm.

Mike (04:37.094)
I had been a lifelong runner and found out I had an undiagnosed injury, a labrum tear in my hip. And so I was going to need to get that remediated and wouldn't be able to run again. And so talk about identity, right? He was my only sibling. And so, you know, it's essentially an only child. And then this thing that was the crux of my identity had been taken away from me. And...

Jennie (04:48.466)
Oh wow.

Yeah.

Mike (05:02.246)
But yet I was pulling Anna, cause here I am from the positive psych tribe, right? So I'll will myself through gratitude and meditation out of this malaise. And the more I tried to do that, to just be like, you know, I'll get through this, you know, without asking for help, without processing the trauma. Um, you know, I was getting close to a clinical diagnosis. And so I guess, you know, being kind of a geek about research and whatnot, I, I was self aware that this was happening, but I wanted to.

Jennie (05:08.526)
Right?

Mike (05:29.966)
dissect why and that's kind of the beginning of this path on looking at fun juxtaposed to happiness.

Jennie (05:37.682)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Talk about it. Talk about an identity crisis. That's absolutely when you lose somebody that close and then you also lose the ability to participate in an activity that up until that point in your life, absolutely kind of defined something for you, part of you and probably part of your fun, right? In life, something that brought you joy. And then you all of a sudden lose that as well at the same time. That's...

Mike (06:01.67)
Oh, absolutely.

Jennie (06:07.922)
Um...

Mike (06:08.326)
not only a dish like joy, right? But also admittedly, I have low level anxiety. I mean, I've always been kind of a hustler and, and I liked that. Like I have, I believe, you know, a healthy level of anxiety that needs to be managed, right? But I can use that as fuel and running was really a great non -pharmaceutical way, you know, to keep that at bay. If I was really stressed.

Jennie (06:15.026)
Uh huh.

Mike (06:35.046)
throw on some running shoes, get out there, put on some music I like and come back a different person. And so not only was to your point, my fun taken away, but I think importantly, acknowledging the way I mitigated this challenge was taken away too. So it was really an avalanche.

Jennie (06:40.56)
Yeah.

Jennie (06:55.546)
Absolutely. Well, and you mentioned positive psychology that has now, we can sometimes reference some of those tools when used incorrectly or overused as toxic positivity. And that's definitely something that we've talked about here on the podcast and that I talk about in parenting as well is that we can't just paint over everything in life and throw some,

inspirational quote on top of it or you'll get through it or just keep going, things like that. It glosses over the actual experience of the person. And when you gloss over it, you don't actually feel what you need to feel in order to move through it. You skip over it and it just lays latent in your body and in your mind and you end up, it ends up coming out in other very unhealthy ways.

So I'm curious how you, you know, did your positive psychology training help you through some of that, that era of your life in 2016, or did you have to, did you have to pivot and kind of look at another way of processing things?

Mike (08:11.526)
So I want to take a step back and then I'll definitely answer your question because I agree with everything you said, but I think an important second component, especially for us that are trying to help others, you know, yourself included, is that dissonance too, right? Like when you are well -meaning, but you give that, you know, essentially what's meant to be a gift to someone that's not ready to receive it.

They might still want to accept it, but like that disconnect, right? Like, you know, you'll get through it. Like, I don't feel like that right now. And so it can cause what, you know, it's kind of a geeky word, but moral injury, right? And if the person doing it doesn't mean it's not an ill intent. I'm at most people are coming from this great place, but I think it's important to. Yes, you don't paint over it because you, we need time to process. And certainly that was a hard.

Jennie (08:51.794)
Hmm.

Jennie (08:56.626)
Right.

Mike (09:05.936)
learned lesson for me, but one that was gifted to me recently too is, yeah, this idea that, especially if we were going to try and help others to the extent that we can apply our empathy and be like, is this person ready for this particular tool or message? Right. And so that is a good segue into answering your question. I think they were always there to be helpful because all of these tools are helpful. Right. I mean,

the restorative nature of gratitude, I mean, that is well established, right? But one of the things that is known well now, this research comes from Sonia Lubomirski out of the University of California at Riverside, was this weird thing, similar to eight glasses of water, if anyone's read Freakonomics, like there's no science behind that, you hear that all the time, right? You're supposed to drink eight glasses of water.

Jennie (09:37.138)
Yes, yes.

Jennie (09:59.443)
Yeah, yeah.

Mike (10:01.094)
this idea that you're supposed to be grateful for three things a day, it doesn't really isn't grounded in anything that really came out of, you know, empirical research. So she went and looked at that as a directive, because you're seeing that all over Instagram, right? All the like, here, do this, you know, keep your gratitude journal and make sure you find three things a day. And again, if that if you're not in a place where that's an appropriate directive, like that can start to, you know,

Jennie (10:15.408)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (10:29.772)
you start to get frustrated, right? Like, well, everyone's, I mean, finding three things a day to be grateful for, that should be easy and I can't do it. Maybe you shouldn't, your brother just passed away. Like that, you know, you're in an emotional state where, you know, finding, you know, positively emotional things to sort of relish in isn't what your body needs right now. And so, you know,

Jennie (10:38.066)
Mm -hmm.

Right.

Mike (10:54.726)
Yeah, should you find episodic things to be grateful for, like for a friend that helps you with bereavement? Absolutely, right? Because that's going to make you feel connected again. You're going to realize like, yes, I'm, you know, amongst this, um, you know, era of great loss, but I also realize there's still people in my life that can bring me joy. But to do that three times a day is going to actually cause me harm. And so those tools are always there to be helpful, but I think where we want to skew was.

you know, these sort of absolute immutable like, no, it's three times a day, right? Or like, this doesn't exactly, isn't exactly in line with your question, but I talk about it in the book, like these apps where we know meditation is a great tool too, right? But like, especially if you're not neuro -typical, the idea of trying to get someone to meditate like 20 or 30 minutes a day, right? So I have a Muse device.

Jennie (11:28.914)
Yeah.

Mike (11:50.086)
And I only really want to meditate five to 10 minutes a day, but it keeps sending me notifications. Like you did great today. Let's try for 20 tomorrow. Like, why, you know, and then actually like, I turned, you know, I turned them off because that started to make me hate meditation before I even realized like, Oh wait, this is just again, maladaptive advice. You know, some engineer that doesn't even really understand, uh, behavioral science was just.

Jennie (11:57.522)
Yeah.

Jennie (12:05.97)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (12:17.254)
You know, trying to do what you would do in an app because notifications pull us back to our phones, right? And that makes these things addictive. And so again, it was probably with, you know, really, um, well -meaning intent. Like, of course we should get people to meditate more, but more a lot of times isn't better. And so again, to kind of tie it all into a bow, like the tools have always been helpful, right? But at that time.

Jennie (12:22.802)
Uh huh.

Mike (12:44.198)
being over prescribed to them or to think that they were going to fill in this huge fissure that was left in my brother's absence, just wasn't it. That what was gonna heal that fissure was time and processing what it meant to now have an intimate relationship with mortality. Cause he was my younger brother, right? So I think there's kind of a gift in believing you're gonna live forever.

Jennie (13:07.666)
Mm.

Mike (13:11.782)
which a lot of us do until we're like smacked in the face with mortality. But then there's an even bigger gift of understanding that we only have a certain amount of time here, you know, once you're able to get there. And so anyways, now I'm playing outside the lines a little bit, but yeah, so they were helpful. But again, what we now know is that in the right context are helpful. And so we need to be really careful about that. And if one doesn't work, throw it out. You know, a lot of folks are like,

No, just keep trying, it will work. Like, uh, no.

Jennie (13:44.242)
Different tools for different people. Yeah. And also different timelines. Your brother's passing, taking your brother's passing and comparing it to my father's passing and based on, there's so many different factors that play into who you are versus who I am and how we process things differently just in the way that our brains work, the way that our emotions work.

Mike (13:47.087)
Yeah.

Jennie (14:14.21)
where we're at in our lives, the support system we either do or don't have, the responsibilities we do or don't have, all of these factors play into processing something like that. And just like anything else in life, that's true for everybody. And so each tool isn't necessarily meant to be used by every single person.

Mike (14:40.262)
Absolutely. Yeah, and you bring up a good point. I meant all of those journeys are so complex, each with their own sort of attributes that, yeah, warrant kind of a tailored approach. And so I think that's the important message, right? Is that, you know, whether it's trying to architect something in a more joyful way or navigate, you know, really deep waters, like,

take that advice, pull the meat from the bone, but if it's not working, don't let that cause further injury and say, this isn't working for me. And hopefully you're in a supportive environment where people understand boundaries. And if you're not, that can get even more complicated, but at least give yourself some grace. Cause I think a lot of folks forget to do that, right? Especially in those times of trauma, we forget that we have agency and autonomy because it's hard.

Jennie (15:31.218)
Fisher.

Mike (15:36.358)
that this thing happened to us, right? So it's hard to remember that we still have some control over how we navigate it. And that's really what was able to help me pull myself out of that, that despite my emotional state in certain circumstances, based on my preferences, I could still elicit enjoyable experiences with the folks that I cared about while sort of putting on course blinders for some of the things that were more problematic.

Jennie (15:38.832)
Yeah.

Jennie (16:07.442)
Yeah, I think that applies in parenting too, because you reiterated and you said this before that to say the quote, this tool isn't working for me. And so often when something is prescribed to us as this should help you, this will make things better and it doesn't, then we think there's something wrong with us. And that also applies.

to our children and the way that we help our children navigate through the world, whether it's through a loss and grief or whether it's through a fight with a friend at school or whether it's through falling down and scraping their knee for the first time, however small or big that it might be, the way that we help our children navigate through hardship is going to be different for each child because each child is unique and has their own way of.

processing and brain function and emotional process and all of that. And so I just, I just love that you said that because I immediately was just like, yeah, and kids, like we think that kids, like where does that come, come through as an adult where I think something's wrong with me if the tool isn't working? Well, it comes from my childhood where I was told over and over again that these things should work for me or like you should be getting A's in school or you should be doing well at the sport. You should be, you know, the expectation is there.

for me to perform the same way that other people are performing versus these are Jenny's strengths. And so we should be putting her in an environment, in a place where she can succeed at the things that she is good at and everything else just doesn't matter. And that applies with hardship, getting our kids through hardship, they're unique beings and finding the right tool for our kids individually is so important.

Mike (18:01.062)
Yeah, I've been fortunate enough to meet a lot of folks like you through the process, because admittedly I'm not a parent expert, but because I have looked at the research with regards to enjoyment and parenting, you know, I get invited on, you know, amazing podcasts like yours. And I've learned from folks like you about those differences through, you know, my academic training, we get a deep understanding of nurture versus nature. So I.

kind of understood that lens, but being given the gift of making sure that I look at both my kids differently, which was only sort of passed down to me, you know, a couple of years ago has been such a game changer because it's wild. My daughter processes information a lot like me. So maybe that was like, you know, almost a blessing and a curse because we're so aligned that.

there's little disconnect, right? Like when I hear her describe something, I can essentially use my lens because I know 80 % of it's how I see the world. My son sees the world so differently than me and my daughter, but I didn't acknowledge that because I was naive, you know, up until recently. And now that I know the way that he processes information and sort of then, you know,

Jennie (19:07.12)
Yeah.

Mike (19:26.91)
how it affects him externally is so different. It's just been amazing because now we're on the same page, right? It's Stephen Covey at its best, right? And so, yeah, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think the more that we can acknowledge that and whether you want to call it empathy or not, I think just always leads to better outcomes across all domains of life.

Jennie (19:35.122)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Jennie (19:54.706)
It does. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We need to put that on a sign.

Mike (19:57.734)
But it's tough, right? Because the beginning of any sort of introspection is through our own lens. So it really does require such a intention because you have to slow down, right? It's at least two or three extra steps. You have to take in their information. Then you have to kind of guess.

Jennie (20:18.182)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (20:26.756)
you know, where they're coming from and completely put yours aside, which also takes energy. And then you kind of need to put it together. So it's, I mean, it's mindfulness at its best, but it can be exhausting, quite frankly.

Jennie (20:31.666)
Yes.

Jennie (20:40.914)
Yeah. I always say like that, that, you know, mindful parenting, relational parenting, it's not the easier version of parenting. It's easier to just look at things through your own lens and your own opinion and, you know, lay down the law. That's easier. That's so much easier. Um, but you're going to get kids who wander out into the world without knowing what the hell to do with themselves.

Mike (20:50.886)
No.

Mike (21:01.222)
Way easier.

Mike (21:10.246)
Yeah, you tell me, but my understanding too is in the modern era, you know, before without all of the available distraction, I think it was easier for our generation, our parents generation to be able to operate that way. Right. But now kids have a faster breaking point. And so you, one of the things that we're seeing, right, is that parents that do do that, um, they might get lucky and it might work.

But when it doesn't work, the kids are just like, okay, this form of being punitive or, you know, just, I don't care anymore. And so you have the potential, you know, at 15 or 16 for them to just not listen to you anymore. Much faster than it was for our generation.

Jennie (22:03.218)
I, that's interesting. I haven't thought about that, but I think that you're right. Because...

especially teenagers, they have access to so much more information. When I was growing up, you know, we had just like, I was, I was 16 and got a flip phone. So my, the majority smartphones didn't come out till. So I didn't have access. Like I didn't have constant access to the internet. I didn't, I wasn't on screens all the time. Like I grew up outside.

Mike (22:25.702)
I'm only laughing because now that's showing my age. I had a pager, so we're a couple years back.

Jennie (22:40.636)
You know, and so outside of your close community, your friends, your family, your school, you didn't really know much more about the world than that. And so our worlds were a lot smaller back then. And I think that the access to the internet and the access to information, you know, there's a lot of negatives. There's a lot of things I have to say about screen time.

that's for a different episode. But I think that one of the positives is that kids have more access to that there might be a different way to live your life. You don't have to act like this or you don't have to be bullied or yell, constantly yelled at or put down and shamed and all of these things all the time. And so I think that when you have a little bit broader of a worldview, which back in the day you had to like travel and go out into the world to learn.

And now you can be on the internet for a few hours and be like, oh, other people live different ways. And I think that has empowered some kids to be like, this is abusive and I don't respect you and I'm not going to listen to you anymore. Yeah, I think that's absolutely true.

Mike (23:57.574)
Yeah, that's exactly how I'd explain it as well. And it seems to be holding true because you just see it amongst kind of that dysfunction. And I don't know if it's wisdom, if it's faster maturity. Like a lot of these kind of bigger concepts, there's a level of complexity, right? We know all the way from biochemistry and hormones and foods that people are maturing faster, right? So I'm at...

Jennie (24:26.33)
Yeah.

Mike (24:27.2)
folks aren't able to be kids at both a psychological and physiological level like we were, right? So I don't think it's anyone's fault either, but it is the paradigm in which we're living. And so it, but the one thing that I wholeheartedly believe and it's based on the empirical evidence I've seen is that you can only be punitive up to a certain point now, where my parents were punitive up until I left for college. And then,

Right? Like you're 18, now you get your agency and autonomy. It's almost like your ticket got punched and you know, it was part of the recipe, right? But now, yeah, you know, at 15 or 16, if it's a heavy hand, ultimately it's going to fail at some point, which is surprising a lot of parents apparently.

Jennie (24:59.92)
Yeah.

Jennie (25:13.49)
Oh really?

Mike (25:15.46)
you know, because they've now lost control, but they were used to wait. But my parents, like I had to say what they, you know, I had to do what they said. And that's just, you know, for a lot of folks, not that. And when their kids challenge them at such a young age, right, it's surprising because it is kind of a new normal. And I don't know what's right or wrong. I just know it's something that we're all facing, you know, so we do need to at least talk about it.

Jennie (25:20.882)
Yeah.

Jennie (25:24.4)
Yeah.

Jennie (25:42.995)
Yeah. When I think punitive parenting, like of course, all we, all any of us know knows about parenting unless you've studied it, unless you've gone into that field and studied child development and psychology and all of these things. The only thing that we know going into parenting is how we were parented. So of course that cycle repeats itself and being punitive comes through as a way to parent and you know, you seek to.

have children who listen to you and obey and you know best, you've been on earth longer. And in a lot of ways, in judgment and safety, that's true. You do know better. However, if you're raising, you're raising adults is something I like to say. You're not raising children, you're raising adults. And so if you treat them like insignificant,

disrespectful, punitive, and you don't value their input or give them a voice or do any of these things that we now know based on empirical research that you need to do in order to raise like a really mentally and emotionally well adult, then it shouldn't shock you that that's what you're going to get back when they start getting bigger and you can't just control them physically anymore.

You know, when they're toddlers, when they're nine year olds, you can still kind of pick them up and throw them over your shoulder and you're still bigger and they're still scared of you. But once that fear goes away, like if that's all you've been using in your parenting, then your tools are gone by the time they're 15 and 16 years old, you know?

Mike (27:18.04)
Yeah.

Mike (27:31.11)
And another thing that I found fascinating, like in your training, did you have to watch the Bobo the Clown videos about modeling adult behavior? It's amazing. Anyone can Google it. It's from the 60s. But like, so this adult comes in and starts being mean to what's essentially one of those blow up punch clowns, you know, and gets physical with it. And immediately,

Jennie (27:39.986)
I don't think so. Oh my gosh.

Jennie (27:52.85)
Okay.

Mike (27:57.638)
children that don't even really have a connection to the adult start treating this clown horribly, right? And so that's kind of the beginning, but we understand how much now kids do model our behavior, right? And so it used to be our parents were, would tell us what to do and it was instructional, right? And now it's so much more important to show for all the reasons that you have.

you know, already indicated. And that is because they have a worldview that we just didn't have access to. And whether that's right or wrong, because I kind of do like the fact that I was a kid for a long time, maybe more immature longer than I should have been. But I meant my 12 year old daughter, I like the way you framed it. I mean, we are raising a young adult now. She is not a 12 year old in the sense of what I remember when I was 12, when I was still looking for crawdads in our local creek.

Jennie (28:53.906)
Yeah.

Mike (28:54.118)
You know, I mean, she's, when I look at her Google history, there's good and bad in there, of course, but the intellect just blows me away. The questions that she's asking in the search bar aren't things that I thought about until I was in college.

Jennie (29:06.034)
Mm -hmm.

Jennie (29:09.778)
Yeah, kids are, they are growing up faster. And I don't, you know, personally for me, you know, limits on internet accessibility and all of that is the plan. But I also think that the internet can be a friend in that, you know, they can Google things and ask questions. And, you know, if you have that bond and that relationship, they can bring those questions to you, the parent and it.

It does foster another level of connection and conversation between you and your child and getting to know each other even better and all of those things. But yeah, I remember when I was 12, I was just a kid. I was just doing kid stuff. And now I know a 12 -year -old who I take her out for her birthday every year. She gets a whole day of whatever she wants to do.

And it used to be like, let's go swimming and go to the park. And now all of a sudden this year is let's go to Sephora and whatnot. And I'm like, oh my God, stop it.

Mike (30:15.014)
Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's what my daughter wanted for her 12th birthday. She wanted a day at the mall with her friends. And they, I meant, yeah, and they had hundreds of dollars, all of them. And it's not like we're super affluent, you know, and that's just something that I don't remember. I think we got $5 to go to the arcade. And I know that sounds like, in my day, milk was 25 cents, but it still seems ridiculous. We definitely weren't going to the mall, you know.

Jennie (30:20.53)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jennie (30:35.378)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Jennie (30:42.97)
No.

Mike (30:44.134)
Not until, you know, we were late teenagers. But I think to circle back about building that rapport, because it is so important, I think, you know, based on the cautionary tale that we've just talked about, you know, going back to concepts of fun that could be helpful, I think that is, you know, because we're sort of meeting closer in the middle than any previous era, you know, being able to be childlike.

with your kid so that they don't necessarily look at you as an adult in moments. Obviously, there's gonna be plenty of times where you have to be an adult or you're in a role where you need to be a mentor because they're doing something wrong or whatever. But if you can get down to their level, the research that I've found, especially using fun as a fuel, you will get a rapport like they are your friends. Almost forget that...

Jennie (31:37.554)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (31:43.078)
you're their parent, right? And they'll disclose stuff and you'll get to know stuff about them that as a parent you never would. And so that's what one of the things I really do like about, you know, creating these playful, fun experiences with your kids is when you see that, when they like those moments where they forget, right? That you're their parent and they're like, start, like my daughter will catch herself. She'll start telling me about a boy she likes. And then, you know, she'll, oh, wait a second, this is my dad. And so.

Jennie (32:10.898)
I'm sorry.

Mike (32:11.91)
Like our new jam right now is playing pickleball together. And, um, and I'll just let it like naturally float, you know, like you see, let's say on our guard starts, you know, looking at me as a friend and, uh, as she should, right. And, and then we have this amazing experience and then I'm our dad again, but those moments, um, can be not just restorative and exciting and we can get in the whole of neuroscience if you want.

Jennie (32:34.45)
Yeah.

Mike (32:41.018)
Because you remember those moments, right? Instead of the habitual stuff we do as parents, right? Like, okay, I just need to take my kid to practice or, you know, if they're younger, I'll just get them to the park, you know, and you're sitting there mindlessly scrolling Instagram just because you're trying to essentially babysit or childcare, not really create these moments. But when you do create those moments, then you encode amazing information, right? You have all these things to look back on and relish.

And sometimes that's as simple as just making that active choice of, I'm not going to be passive here. I'm going to figure out how to co -create an experience where we both want to be there, you know, at the same level.

Jennie (33:19.986)
And when it's like, what you're talking about is, is connection. It could, I mean, it could boil down to, to, to that word. And, and you're, you're always her dad, right? She, in any moment, no matter what you're creating with her, you're always her dad. And, but she, there are moments where, like you said, we can, we can create fun.

which creates ease in our bodies and in our minds and it creates safety. And so when she feels your guard come down, her guard comes down. And then all of a sudden, all of these things that she wants to talk to a trusted person about can come out. And they've shown in research, even with like two and three year olds, you can get little, little kids to talk to you and usually only when you're in play.

with them. I can be in the car with a three -year -old and ask him how his preschool day was, and he'll just be like, good, and look out the window. But if we get home and we're playing with his magnetiles, he'll just all of a sudden, unprompted, start telling me about this thing he did with his friend at school, or the coolest part of his day, or something about his teacher. And it is. It's an intentional...

release of like the the guard we have up as adults as we're like, all right, I gotta do this and I've got to get this done. And this has to happen and stress and anxiety and all the things that we have to be responsible for as adults. When we can have those moments, five minutes, 15 minutes, a half hour pickleball game, whatever it is, and we can let our guard down. That's when our kids are going to feel safe and they're going to open up to. Yeah.

Mike (35:13.414)
Yeah. And the physical science behind it's getting really interesting too, right? As we're learning more about the limbic system, just being able to down -regulate all of that by, you know, calming down all the worries that adults have now, which because of this, you know, knowledge era that we live in is more intense than it ever was, right? So we kind of talked about some of the complexities with kids. I know we should give ourselves some grace too, right? Cause it's pretty complex for us too. Um,

Jennie (35:34.418)
Yeah.

Jennie (35:39.602)
Heheheheh.

Mike (35:42.746)
I mean, you're part of the sandwich generation, right? This is an era that never really saw having to take care of kids and aging parents. And so that weight of responsibility is another aspect of life that's fairly new that we don't talk about a lot, right? But I mean, the stresses that we're taking on are just wholeheartedly more intense than they ever have been before. And yet we're like, what's wrong with us? Well, there's a lot of headwinds coming at us.

Jennie (36:10.002)
Right? Yeah, absolutely. So do you, so, so in your book, The Fun Habit, it's one of the snippets that I read about it that I just absolutely loved. I want to read it to you. It says, the fun habit is anti -toxic positivity and happiness striving. The approach is very much about embracing all of your feelings and mindfully adding more fun to your life rather than chasing after happiness.

he as in you, shows you how to find the time and find the kind of fun that's right for you. And so I'm curious, what are some of those tangible ways that you can find the time and find the right kind of fun and engage in those things?

Mike (36:59.142)
Yeah, so in the book, I essentially, you know, we talked about a little bit, but fun is so unique to the individual, right? That's another, you know, in the spirit of not prescribing anything to anyone, right? Like, you know, I unpack how, you know, for, well, there's a couple of things. So let me start that, you know, one of the things I discuss in the book is, especially here in the Western world, I'll work with people that are like, I'm just not fun. And then when I unpack that it's because,

they bought into the marketing version of what fun is, right? These high arousal activities, you know, up against, you know, the guard rail at a rock concert or, you know, being out of beach with a bunch of other influencers. And so this work comes from Jeannie Tsai out of Stanford, but I mean, when we're talking about fun, it's just, are you finding pleasure in the things that you're doing and are you drawn to them? Right? So.

Jennie (37:34.93)
You

Mike (37:49.19)
you know, an introvert that were fun for them is around a pool engaging in a good book and then get lost in it for hours. They're just as fun as the person crowdsurfing, you know, at a Rage Against the Machine concert. And yet they'll be like, well, I'm not a fun person, which is such a shame, right? Because again, that bleeds into your identity. So reframing that is important. But with regards to just tactical advice, I think, you know, again, it's sort of rude and self -determination theory, but...

Jennie (38:05.618)
Yeah.

Mike (38:18.47)
Where can you find pockets in your hundred and six, eight hours where you can reclaim time for yourself? Whether that's co -creating experiences and situations where, you know, initially you felt like you had to do it. You know, like I have to take my kids to the park and then you're just re -tooling that to like, I get to play pickleball with my daughter, right? Or, you know, changing the circumstance to something that feels like it's.

Jennie (38:40.53)
Yeah.

Mike (38:46.598)
you know, mundane tasking is something that you actually like to do. A lot of adults end up getting stuck because they haven't thought about fun for so long, they don't have any fresh ideas. And that's a really easy fix, luckily. That's just sitting down with yourself for an hour and going, you know what, if I had the time, what could I do that I would find fun? And so a little bit of self exploration generally gives you a lot of good answers.

And then if you look at that list and pare it down to like eight or 15 things, there are generally a few of them that you could do. You just hadn't thought about it, right? Like even just coffee with an old friend that you haven't talked to for a couple of months. And the nice thing is that once you integrate that back in and it's generally, you know, we're just talking about one to three hours of the 168 that you have in a week, you were able to go, wait a second. Okay. That was only one hour.

but now today, the next day, I feel so much better. And I'm actually able to get more done, which then frees up more time. And then you find that balance, right? Just like sleep. Because again, life isn't meant to be fun all the time, right? That would be, again, back to toxic positivity. And just like you wouldn't tell someone to sleep for 14 hours. But if you're not sleeping at all, we need to sort that out, right? And so in a similar fashion,

Jennie (39:43.972)
Mm -hmm.

Jennie (39:56.466)
Right.

Jennie (40:05.616)
Yeah.

Mike (40:08.132)
If you're like, you know what, I just don't have fun. Like we need to fix that. So, um, kind of the entryway into that is to start small because again, like a lot of behavior change, right? Oftentimes a great analogy is getting back into the weight room, you know, January 2nd, you're like, I'm going to go six days a week, you know, every week. And then that just wasn't sustainable. The same goes with fun. Like anyone that's like, I'm going to change out, you know, like.

Jennie (40:24.498)
Yeah.

Jennie (40:30.706)
Oh yeah.

Mike (40:34.502)
I'm going to go hike the Himalayas or go on some crazy vacation and then that vacation's over and they're like, why am I still unhappy? Well, that wasn't the point, right? That's why it's called the fun habit. How can we eventually create these micro moments of joy? And generally that's much, much easier than people think. And again, it starts by being mindful, making sure you're not looking at this as a prescription that has to be.

Jennie (40:36.754)
Yeah.

Jennie (40:43.314)
Right?

Mike (41:01.51)
sort of added on to your already busy life. It's about finding those things that you're doing that you really don't enjoy that can be replaced with things that are, you know, more enjoyable, even if that just means changing the way you're going about things.

Jennie (41:17.65)
When at the beginning you mentioned the chasing after happiness, right? This carrot that dangles out in front of us, but we never actually reach it. And then we could just go through our lives feeling miserable. How is the fun habit different from that?

Mike (41:37.446)
So it's essentially an invitation to have joy in the present, right? Again, so many of us, you know, kind of relinquish it to that once a year vacation at the end, especially here in North America, where, you know, we're the second to last in the developed nation for giving folks access to leisure, right? Two years off per one year's worth of work. Yeah. So only one country worse than us, Micronesia, which is weird when you think about how developed this country is, right?

Jennie (41:49.746)
Mmm.

Jennie (41:57.298)
right? It's awful. Yeah.

Jennie (42:05.65)
You

Mike (42:07.366)
And we're now learning that that lack of leisure and the inaccessibility to, you know, joyful moments is leading to a whole host of real problems, which are actually paradoxically affecting productivity. So luckily we're finally starting to awaken that this needs to change. I do like to liken it to how we had this Renaissance of sleep in the nineties. If you recall, like in the nineties,

you know, hustlers were celebrating sleep deprivation. And now you would never do that, right? Even, you know, the most staunch sort of A type people realize that if they're not maintaining good sleep hygiene, they can't be productive. And we're learning the same about leisure and enjoying yourself. If you're not spinning down and down regulating these systems, you're eventually going to burn out academically, the group of

Jennie (42:37.094)
Yeah.

Jennie (42:47.056)
Yeah.

Mike (42:59.206)
folks that I studied the most are physicians. Last year was the worst year for them at 63 % reporting their burnt out. And you're seeing, you know, in that vocation, you know, people just leaving the profession, which is going to create a real problem for a different episode. But you're seeing that across the board, right? And you're seeing it with parenting as well. And the problem is once you get to that state, once you're not enjoying yourself, then you start to lose empathy. And for parents that can be,

Jennie (43:15.25)
Yeah.

Mike (43:28.646)
especially problematic, right? Because again, when everything seems like work, like you're, you know, you feel like it's just your duty to get this done and you're not finding any joy in the things that you're doing. Eventually you're going to get to a place where you have some disdain for, you know, week after week of like, okay, this is Groundhog's day. I mean, just what a horrible place to kind of exist in, right? And we do know it can lead, you know, to things outside of just...

Jennie (43:53.202)
Yeah.

Mike (43:57.358)
malaise. I mean, it can lead to clinical issues. And so, but the good news again is similar to sleep where it's just like, no, you just do a few things, you know, you make sure your room's a little bit colder, make sure you know, you're not looking at a screen an hour before bed. Fun is the same thing. Like, no, let's just make a few better choices. Instead of displacing the discomfort of the day, let's be active about how you, you know, engage in activities that you want to do, you know, you're allowed to have a voice.

Jennie (44:24.242)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (44:26.054)
You're allowed to co -create these experiences with people that coexist in your space. You have a voice. And just those subtle shifts, right, are enough to kind of get you out of this downward spiral and get you back to an upward spiral to the point that you find that balance, you know.

Jennie (44:44.882)
I love that. And I love what you mentioned with parenting because we do, we see, I mean, parents burn out for so many reasons. And we, you know, everyone has so much going on and juggling work and finances and your own health and your children's health and nutrition and, you know, a million different things. And there's something throughout my childhood,

childcare experience that I've learned, especially when I was a nanny full time, is that I, no matter how much I loved or enjoyed caring for children, I would burn out. And I finally realized that I was just doing the activities with these kids that were like, like the typical expect, societal expectation. And so, but then when I started thinking,

time, like for myself being like, what would I want to do today? And how can I adapt it so that the child can participate in it? I was like, Oh, like we can just go have fun and they can just come along. You know, it doesn't have to be, you know, if you have, I always think of young children because they're, they're, you older kids. It's a little bit easier to, to take them places or.

Drop them off at a friend's house and have your own time. But when you've got really little kids, it can be a lot harder to kind of get out of the house and go do things. But it is possible and the more that you do real things with your kids, things that they would actually do for themselves when they get older, the...

Jennie (46:34.642)
the more just normal that their life is going to be because you like, instead of trying to create all of these like kid -friendly activities at home and I'm gonna put together a craft basket and do all this like back work just to...

Mike (46:52.998)
And that's the key word, right? I was waiting for it, but work. What a shame, right? Because it doesn't have to be.

Jennie (46:56.178)
work. Yeah. It's like, I've got to put together and plant, like make lesson plans almost for my kids. Just so that I, they have something to do while I do the dishes. It's like, you know, going to the park could be, I'm getting my steps in for the day and they're coming and I'm watching them play while I'm walking around the park or doing my run while they're playing at the park or, you know, and you just kind of have to run with acceptance of.

your run might get a little interrupted if your kid falls down and needs a hug or yeah.

Mike (47:29.83)
be okay with that, right? Like the three things I would say there is one you just touched on is that are kind of light bulb moments, right? Is that flexibility, like to the extent that you can relinquish any sort of rigid expectations, like you're going to be so much better off. It might take a little bit longer, might not be completely in line with your ideology, but you know, if no one needs to be taken to the hospital, everything is going to be okay. Right.

Jennie (47:40.978)
Hmm.

Jennie (47:45.842)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Jennie (47:56.53)
Right.

Mike (47:58.022)
The second is the power you have to co -create these experiences with your kids. So many people approach it through the lens of performative art. Like, no, you don't have to create this experience just like you would with any other friend and quite frankly, how they would with their friends. Hey, what do you want to do today? Oh, guess what? I don't like that. So do you have like three other options? And the kid will, right? You might not, because you've forgotten.

Jennie (48:15.058)
Hmm.

Mike (48:24.902)
But the kid will give you three and you'll go, you know, this is one I can't do. Yeah, let's play with Play -Doh, you know, or, you know, you hate Legos and they bring up Legos. Legos, what else do you got? Like, I don't know, want to go bike riding? Yeah, I do, you know, and actually I wanted to exercise today. So that's perfect, right? And then quite frankly, I think I forgot the third one.

Jennie (48:35.634)
Yeah.

Jennie (48:46.482)
It's okay. It might come back to you. Yeah. The co -creation. I love that. Because I also, right before we started recording, you mentioned child -centric parenting. And I think that there was like punitive authoritarian parenting back in our day, you know? And then, and...

We grew up and realized that wasn't right. And then I think things swung the other way for a while with being like, you have to give yourself up in order to raise your children correctly. You have to give them everything. You have to, you know, self -sacrifice and all of these things. And then, but then you have kids growing up who have no sense of discipline, responsibility, you know, social acceptance, et cetera. And they're just running.

rampant. And I think that the last maybe 510 years, we're starting to hopefully swing back towards the middle here where you can be a parent and still be yourself and still raise really healthy children. And in fact, that is the way to raise them is by having you still have a voice as a parent and you still have options. And you get to co create a life with your children, not have your

your life completely dominated by your children and their needs.

Mike (50:14.15)
Yeah, I agree. What a weird directive that a lot of our parents are guided by, right? Spare the rod, spoil a child. I mean, it's weird. But to your point too, you know, completely relinquishing control is inappropriate and can lead to what we're seeing. And so I think this, you know, realization that, okay, maturity is happening faster.

Jennie (50:19.186)
Yeah.

Jennie (50:23.858)
Great.

Mike (50:43.686)
And they're no longer going to be an extension of our namesake. You know, we're not cobblers aren't creating cobblers. They have, you know, access to information and they truly are their own person much earlier than, you we were or our parents were. Means there needs to be a new rule book, but it doesn't mean that we're still not parents and that we still don't have an immense amount of impact on whether or not they're successful or not. And so I wholeheartedly agree with everything that you said.

Jennie (50:52.018)
Hmm.

Jennie (51:03.378)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Mike (51:14.054)
But I still think we're figuring it out because the way things are evolving is so quick, right? I mean, you know, the threats are new, you know, especially with online bullying and, you know, the kind of intrinsic and intrinsic ways that personality is now developed because there are so many artificial currencies with regards to how you get validated, right? We didn't have likes and comments.

Jennie (51:16.466)
Hmm.

Jennie (51:22.994)
Mm -hmm.

Jennie (51:40.402)
Hmm... Mm -hmm...

Mike (51:42.502)
And our audience was our peers at high school, not a global set of what you, in the book I call an army of nothing, but at 13 years old, it's really hard to understand that these folks don't care about your wellbeing, right? It holds a lot more weight. And so it's a complex landscape for sure.

Jennie (51:47.378)
Yeah.

Jennie (51:58.802)
Yeah.

Jennie (52:07.41)
It is, it is. And it's definitely, there's, you know, this generation of parents right now are navigating thing, technology that has never existed before. Um, so there, there is no rule book. There is no, um, no, there's no rules and, and, and playbook. There is a lot, there is a lot. I would encourage parents. There's, there's about eight years of.

solid research now on the effects of social media on our children's brains and development and things like that. And I would encourage anyone listening to go look up those empirical studies because it's very soundly proven that social media has profoundly negative effects on younger minds.

Mike (53:03.526)
untethered, I would make that qualification. Yeah.

Jennie (53:04.762)
Untethered, yes. Yes. Not that like social media should be banned level kind of things, but yeah, just having a 13 year old with a smartphone and unregulated time to spend on the internet is, I was just looking at this number yesterday or the day before, but we went from a teenage girl's,

teenage girls suicide rates being like 12 % to being 30 % in less than four years. So anyway.

Mike (53:44.39)
No, but you're spot on. The two big things that I kind of dug into in the book is one, the ability now to displace discomfort, right? So our kids have no resilience. If they're bored, they're frustrated, they don't like what we had to say, they can go into the room instead of thinking about it, they can just forget about it, right? Because they have a device that pacifies them essentially. And so when something really does go wrong,

Jennie (53:55.088)
Mm -hmm.

Jennie (54:05.616)
Yep.

Jennie (54:09.266)
Yes.

Mike (54:13.894)
they have no tools to be able to navigate it because of these phones, which is horrible. And then the second is access to very strange ideas. And I know there are a lot of landmines there, especially if you start talking about, you know, identity, sexual identity and things of that nature. And it's not my subject matter. So I would just slowly walk away from it. But what I do think is true is that if someone...

Jennie (54:16.498)
Yes.

Jennie (54:31.634)
Mm -hmm.

Jennie (54:35.346)
Hahaha.

Mike (54:40.678)
is uncomfortable in their own skin, which quite frankly all kids are when they go through puberty, this access to someone telling them like this is why can be really problematic that I will stand by.

Jennie (54:45.49)
Hmm.

Jennie (54:49.714)
Yeah.

Yeah. Well, an exposure to topics that our children's brains are not capable of fully comprehending yet too, is something that, yeah, I've looked into and it is, it's scary that there are types of information out there that they're not developmentally,

Mike (55:05.094)
That's a good way to put it as well.

Jennie (55:22.13)
capable of processing appropriately and making decisions. I think.

Mike (55:26.886)
And the one to punch is if they're mildly interested in it, they're going to believe it's important because they don't also understand how these algorithms work, right? Like YouTube, Instagram, or TikTok's like, oh, this individual, because they've already lied about their age, right? Because they're not supposed to be on there as preteens, wants more information on X. And so the child is going to be like, oh, this is clearly truth because this is all I'm getting because...

Jennie (55:30.418)
Hmm.

Jennie (55:35.378)
Right.

Jennie (55:42.416)
Hmm.

Mike (55:55.782)
they don't understand that it's kind of been rigged against them.

Jennie (55:58.994)
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I think parents, I think, one, parents don't know. And I think that it's easy to forget that our prefrontal cortex, like our judgment center, isn't fully developed till we're like 25 to 28 years old. And so having 12 and 13 year olds make...

decisions based on something they saw on the internet a couple of times is just absolutely insane to me.

Mike (56:34.566)
Yeah. And I mean, this is throwing a huge rock at a big glass house, but you know, it goes back to what you were saying where sometimes, you know, to the extent that you have the capacity to endure, you got to remember parenting's work. Cause a lot of times, you know, I'll let it go because I have something to do and it's an easy babysitter. And I've really been trying to get better at that. Like, you know what?

You know, I've got 18 years with you. Yes, I'd like to go mow the lawn right now, but the grass can stay uncut for three more days. I'm not going to let you just go off, you know, and essentially waste time because I want to spend this time with you. And I mean, what a great win -win, right? Gets them away from the phone. And then two, you know, I get to engage with them. And, you know, it's one of those things.

At a broader context, we always think there's gonna be some consequence and you can use that two day, two months, two year rule, right? In two days, am I gonna be pissed to the lawns in that mode? Yeah, probably. In two years, I care. Absolutely not, but in two years, a little bit, I'd be glad. I spent another hour with my daughter who's now off in college or whatever it is. Obviously, I'm kind of mixing metaphors here, but I think...

having the wherewithal, again, taking those extra steps and I get it, it takes energy, but to be deliberate about your choices, especially if it means instilling more joy within a family atmosphere. Generally biasing yourself towards fun is the right call.

Jennie (58:13.458)
Yeah. Yeah. I don't think.

Mike (58:16.934)
And I would say social media use is not fun. It's not, I geek out about it in the book, but the psychological concept is called valence, right? And so fun, valence is just a fancy word for saying pleasure. And so fun, right? Is on the positive side of valence. Are you enjoying what you're doing and are you drawn through it? But what social media tricks us into thinking is that we are, but when you look at it, right? Whether it's brain scans or whatever,

Jennie (58:22.226)
Right?

Mike (58:45.19)
All it's doing is displacing that boredom or frustration, especially if it's not, you know, connecting with others. Like if you have family on the other side of the U S and you're like looking at, you know, wedding photos that you weren't able to attend, that's not what we're talking about here, right? We're talking about mindlessly just, you know, spending. Yes.

Jennie (58:59.73)
Hmm, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, it is. And you mentioned that earlier and it's a bandaid. It becomes a way for not just kids, but adults. And I mean, I'm guilty of it too, of I just...

I want to space out or I don't want to have to think about this thing that's bothering me. And so I'm just going to mindlessly scroll and see if someone else will just cheer me up or distract me for a second. And, and, and I know I'm doing it and I still do it, you know, imagine a kid who, who doesn't have that awareness and it feels good. And they, maybe you're getting likes and comments or.

whatever, like of course they're gonna wanna do that all of the time. But yeah, it's not true joy with a few exceptions, right? Looking at the family wedding photos, yeah.

Mike (01:00:07.654)
Yeah. And even when it is working, it's devoid of oxytocin. Right. And so when we're, I just got, like, I've been trying to like not use these academic words because I know it's silly and yeah, and certainly it doesn't connect with, but so there's this term we have pro -social behavior, which is as geeky as it sounds, but really just, you know, spending time with people you love. When we get that oxytocin and feel connected, like our world becomes safer and.

Jennie (01:00:27.57)
Yeah.

Mike (01:00:37.826)
Our introspection of everything happening to us becomes smaller So by proxy our problems become smaller and the same is true for kids So to the extent that we can lead by example, right? But even again if we're a little bit tired if you're burnt out and you need help like again I think get it right like we're you know it but if we're just trying to course -correct things that don't feel right like putting in that effort even though it might seem a

like effort at the beginning almost always pays dividends, right? It gets you out of that grind. And then ultimately it's infectious because you're like, wait a second. Yeah, there was that inertia I had to overcome, you know, for the first five minutes, but I'm so glad I did this, you know, especially if it's with people that you love.

Jennie (01:01:18.93)
Mm -hmm.

Yes.

Yes, I do. I experienced that. I want to go hang out with my friend or my friends or have people over. But then your mind just starts going, well, then we have to get food and we have to do this and we have to do that. I have to dress up and do my hair and do all the things. And that it is, there's that initial effort, but it's just like anything else, like a workout, doing a workout.

right? The benefits far outweigh the five minutes, the five minute initial uptake that it takes for you to put the clothes on and put the shoes on and go out and do it. You always, you always feel better when you do it. And if we, and I imagine, you know, applying that to the fun habit as well, like, yeah, it's going to take effort. You can't just sit and stare at a wall in your house and think that you're going to have fun. You got to like, think about it and get up and do it.

And, but then you're going to feel better. Um, if you have kids, they're going to feel better and you're going to connect and you're going to have, um, that, that release of oxytocin, um, and you're going to build those relationships either with yourself or with the people you're having fun with and your, your quality of life is going to skyrocket.

Mike (01:02:45.798)
Yeah, and I would suggest if in the book I call it lures, like if there's something that really is causing friction, like let's say you don't want to cook, like figure out how not to and for exercising, that's especially important. Like if there's a piece of it that you don't like, one of the things I, another kind of really fun white mold moment that again, when you say it out loud is like so simple, but I don't know how many people...

Jennie (01:02:58.32)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (01:03:14.404)
You know, we all know that we need to engage in aerobic activity, right? But so many people, again, because of social normative behavior, feel like it has to happen in a gym. And they'll be like, you know what, I've tried to get healthy, but I just don't like the health club. Well, have you tried hiking in nature? I was like, you know, and they're like, wait, I can do that. Like you always could have done that, but I'm glad to invite you to do it. You know, and like now they're off to the races, like, oh my gosh, cause you know,

Jennie (01:03:24.114)
Mmm.

Jennie (01:03:30.578)
Right?

Mike (01:03:42.022)
Then you have the added benefit of nature. That's a whole nother podcast as well. But yeah, if you hate the gym, then just ask better questions, you know, or if you hate cooking and you're like, Oh, I'd love to get together with my friends, but it means this whole thing. Like then get rid of the whole thing. You know, like have a potluck, you know, where you're just buying stuff from trader Joe's, you know, so you don't have to cook. Like there's always a way.

Jennie (01:03:45.81)
Heheheheh

Jennie (01:03:49.744)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:03:57.202)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Jennie (01:04:04.026)
Yep.

Mike (01:04:07.462)
The three main elements to play with are the environment, right? Because some people are like, oh, I like them, but I just hate where we always meet. Well, then suggest somewhere else, right? It could be that you don't like being with those people. Like, you really like doing the thing, but that's the wrong group, right? Then find another group. And then sometimes it's the activity itself. I'm surprised how, so as adults, right, when we habituate behavior, we hate to admit that we've

Jennie (01:04:16.114)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:04:22.898)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (01:04:35.526)
just do it because that's always the way we've done it. It's a weird thing about the human experience. And so I'm surprised how many times like, so how does your weekend go? Oh, well, I use this one example from someone I was working with. They were going to a Toastmasters class because when they initially went to it, and I like Toastmasters, so I always feel horrible because I'm not bagging on them. But this person had initially started going because they really liked the people in the group, but...

Jennie (01:04:38.418)
you

Jennie (01:04:57.328)
Hehehehe.

Mike (01:05:04.23)
slowly but truly, or excuse me, slowly but surely, the people that he liked had tritted out. And now he was just going because that's what he did. But he didn't like it. And I was like, you know, you can stop going and just do something else you find enjoyable. And I found that over and over again. Like, you know, look at the thing that you're doing. And if you're like, I don't, you know, there's nothing in my life that's joyful. Like generally, especially on the weekends, then,

Jennie (01:05:12.018)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Jennie (01:05:20.156)
Yeah.

Mike (01:05:34.118)
there's an easy problem there to fix. There's some low hanging fruit where you can just stop doing something that you're doing or change it in a way that makes it more enjoyable. And it's a great kind of entry way into, oh, wait a second. Oh yeah, I do have a little bit more control than I thought, you know?

Jennie (01:05:36.402)
Mm -hmm.

Jennie (01:05:52.466)
Well, that's like all we have control over, right? We have all these choices all day, every day that we get to make. And so often people have given their power away and you have the power to shape your life. Like, yes, there's always going to be external circumstances that you don't have any control over, but the way that you respond and the choices that you make on how to navigate those things,

You can always pivot. You can always switch directions. You can always find a different way. I love the exercise one because I hate exercise. I hate it. I've always been athletic and I grew up playing sports and I did the workouts because you had to because you were on a team and because you had to go to practice and all those things. And I always felt amazing afterwards, but self -motivated.

working out has never been a strength of mine. And so I do, I have had to accept that like, there are days where I wanna throw my yoga mat out on the back porch and just like do some stretching. There are days where I want to go take a three mile walk or go on a hike or, you know, and that it's going to be different. It's not going to look like this strict regimented.

thing that I go to the gym for and I lift on Mondays and I run on Tuesdays and I, you know, and, and that's what's supposed to look like came from social media, right? And so I've had to like release all of that and remember to just listen to me and my body, what my body wants and stay healthy in the way that is enjoyable and fun so that I will do it. Um, because if you make everything miserable to do, like, yeah, it's, it's still hard.

Mike (01:07:27.918)
Right.

Jennie (01:07:46.13)
It's still, I'm seven months pregnant right now. Walking three miles is really hard. Okay.

Mike (01:07:51.854)
When life life wasn't meant to not be hard right like that's another I always make sure that people you know some people that You know are only half listening on bit like what is he's prescribing a life full of Wednesdays like that's not it Actually like one of the coolest pieces of science. I found Putting the book together is called the hedonic flexibility principle and what it suggests is that when your fun cup is full Those are the people that want challenges

Jennie (01:07:55.634)
Great.

Jennie (01:08:05.97)
No.

Mike (01:08:21.062)
because they feel fulfilled, right? So they seek out the hard stuff. They're the ones that are actually crushing it. When you're depleted, the last thing you wanna do is go find something hard to do, right? Because you have no energy. So again, it's this paradox of like, know, chicken or the egg, right? But what we do know is, you know, even folks that are crushing it, if they have transition rituals, as they take some time off the table for themselves,

Jennie (01:08:21.362)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mike (01:08:47.59)
then they still have the vigor and vitality the next day to do the hard stuff. But the people that keep just grinding it out and aren't enjoying the things they do, ultimately they're not going to be able to do it anymore because life is a long game for most of us.

Jennie (01:09:02.674)
Yeah, yeah, balancing, it all comes back to balance. Life is hard, we all know life is hard. You're gonna have to do hard things, but you also balance it with rest and pleasure, fun, and that's what gives you the juice to do the hard things. Yeah, this has been awesome. I love this. I...

Mike (01:09:22.49)
Absolutely.

Jennie (01:09:30.852)
looked up the fun habits on Amazon, right? Everybody can go can can go look that up the fun habit and tell everybody where they can where they can find you, Mike.

Mike (01:09:43.046)
Thank you for that. I write about the science of fun in a bunch of places like Psychology Today and whatnot, but MichaelRucker .com, my website, has links to all my lay media posts and social media things and all of that. So yeah, the book got re -released as a paperback recently, so if you want to buy it on the cheap, it's now available in that format. And yeah, you can find, if you're interested in my work, MichaelRucker .com is the...

best place.

Jennie (01:10:13.778)
Awesome, and we'll put all those links in the show notes as well so people can just scroll down and click and find you easily. Yeah, well it was so much fun getting to know you and more about your philosophies and your life's work today. Thanks for being here.

Mike (01:10:21.198)
I thank you for that.

Mike (01:10:31.078)
Thanks for having me, Jenny.

Jennie (01:10:32.53)
Yeah. All right. Happy parenting and good luck out there, everybody.