The Relational Parenting Podcast

Jennie (00:01.907)
Everybody has a button. Okay. Oh, and the other, the other thing is that sometimes our screens will disappear or will go black, but it's still recording. So we just, we just keep going. But yeah, just sometimes the screens disappear to save bandwidth or whatever, but it actually shows up in the recording perfectly. So, cool. Well, welcome Steve to the show.

Welcome everybody else to the Relational Parenting Podcast. Yeah, we're here with Steve Anderson, who is a coach for fathers, and you have your own detailed history of your experience as a child with fatherhood and into your own experience as a father, and as well as work experience, working with young men.

Papa Rick (00:34.56)
Hello?

Jennie (00:58.868)
And I really, really appreciate you being here to share all of that with us today.

Papa Rick (01:02.664)
Yeah, very much.

Steve Anderson (01:04.207)
And thank you very much for having me on. I'm glad to be here.

Jennie (01:08.763)
Awesome. I set an intention with the podcast a few months ago, realizing that we were very female voice heavy with our guests, which is fine. And they're wonderful. But I just wanted more male voices on the podcast and getting the perspective from fatherhood.

as well as the experience of mothers. And so I'm also glad and grateful that you're here today to present that perspective as well.

Steve Anderson (01:45.362)
Yeah, thank you. It's interesting, right? When it comes to parenting, you'll, you know, go on Amazon, you'll see a million things for mothers and you know, there'll be a few things for dads and it's just smaller, right? And so I think it's in If you were going to pick moms or dads and say who's less likely to ask for help, right? I think most people would be like dads, right? Because we got a

Jennie (01:56.794)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Anderson (02:11.614)
You know, we're competent, we can handle this stuff, even though our feet are like ducks underwater, right? Going like crazy. And it's like, I think one of the hurdles that so many of us men face is that getting over or not getting over, but getting to that place where realizing, right, that it takes strength to ask for help, right? It takes strength to say, Hey, oh, I'm courage. I think for a lot of men, some of the most courageous things they'll ever do is be vulnerable in front of other people.

Jennie (02:29.767)
Mm.

Papa Rick (02:30.89)
Yeah.

Jennie (02:37.447)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Anderson (02:39.038)
Right. And so I think it's great that we can have conversations and podcasts where, you know, we can talk about things so people can, you know, hear it and get ideas and thoughts that they might not have had, you know, if they're just with their own group.

Papa Rick (02:54.388)
Yeah, vulnerability is a tough one for guys because that's not often our role. And you got to know when and when not to.

Jennie (02:54.755)
Absolutely.

Steve Anderson (03:04.062)
Yeah, absolutely. Right. Because we there are times, right, where if you're vulnerable, people are going to look at you and go, what are you doing? Right. This is no stop, you know. So it's like we got to be pick and choose. Right. So.

Papa Rick (03:12.044)
That's right.

Jennie (03:12.541)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (03:21.947)
I think there's, my husband has explained to me, cause I'll tease him in different social situations and be like, why are you like, why are you, not in front of other people, like we'll leave and I'll be like, why were you acting like that? Or what was, you know, I felt you tense up or I felt you like not being yourself or whatever. And he'll be like, oh, well, there was this one guys there that made me uneasy or whatever. Like he'll suddenly get very.

Papa Rick (03:28.748)
No.

Papa Rick (03:40.748)
Hmm.

Jennie (03:49.127)
short with somebody that we're speaking to. And we'll leave and be in the car and I'll ask, I'll be like, what was that? And he'll be like, I didn't like the way they were talking to you. And there's very much a protective instinct that I think most men have. And there's a level of like you don't want to be vulnerable.

Papa Rick (03:52.128)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (04:03.692)
That protective thing kicks in, yeah.

Jennie (04:18.431)
Um, and then, you know, you get into relationship with, um, if you're in a relationship with a woman and she needs your vulnerability in order to connect with you and then your children need your vulnerability and it's hard, like you've got to flip that switch and kind of gauge when, when to use it and when to be the protector and I can't, yeah, I can only imagine that that's so difficult.

Steve Anderson (04:42.602)
And so you can imagine too, right? If you haven't done it a lot, you're going to screw up or, you know, it's going to be ugly or awkward. The first couple of times you do it, right? Which puts even that, that more pressure on, right? But it's, uh, it's, it's one of those things where the more you do it, you start getting practice with it. Your partner starts to understand better and you can get that, um, give and take. And, and, you know,

Jennie (04:50.957)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (05:06.476)
peace.

Steve Anderson (05:12.842)
I was just reading something too, and it was talking about how oftentimes, when it comes to say, comfort, comforting somebody who's going through like a stressful situation, there's a, and like, again, anytime I'm talking about, you know, generalities, of course there's more, there are generalities. There's always people who are on the, you know, very, you know, nurturing fathers and very pretty, you know, so just understand that. But a lot of times.

Jennie (05:37.253)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (05:41.206)
Um, for women, they will want more specific help or, or specific conversation. And a lot of times with males, it's not what you say. It's the fact that you are beside me when this is going on. So like, I've got a friend who's going through a hard time, you know, there's a chance we're not going to spend much time talking about it, but I might be next to him for, you know, 20 minutes on a fishing pier, you know, where we say.

Papa Rick (05:53.836)
Hmm.

Jennie (05:54.279)
Mmmm

Jennie (06:03.515)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (06:11.374)
10 words and that topic has been brought up. So it's not ignoring it, right. And just kind of being there. And it's like, that's, that's helpful. You know what I mean? That's care. And so I think sometimes all of us can get into that. I need to fix it, right. My, my child, my partner, they're hurting. I want to fix it. And it's like, yeah, that instinct is there, but sometimes, right, what our kids need, what our partners need is just to be there with them as they go through it. And, um,

Papa Rick (06:14.966)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (06:21.345)
Mmm.

Jennie (06:27.399)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (06:40.245)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Anderson (06:42.506)
So easy to say, right? But hard to do when you're seeing your kid, you know, crying or having a meltdown and you're just like, oh, I want to, you know, go in and strangle that fifth grade teacher because I know my kid's getting bullied.

Jennie (06:44.547)
Yeah.

Jennie (06:55.642)
right?

Papa Rick (06:56.356)
Oh, that's right. Hold that thought while I take care of this for you. Yeah.

Jennie (06:59.875)
Right? So do you, so is vulnerability one of the components that you find yourself coaching dads on?

Steve Anderson (07:00.455)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (07:13.17)
So,

Yes. And it wouldn't. And it's not like, OK, so here's today we're going to talk about vulnerability or sort of thing. It's more about. OK. Let's have a let's have a real conversation and just understand that where I'm coming from, right. I'm not coming from a place of judgment.

Right. So I think that that's really important. Right. So first you got to I think it's really important that I can create a place of, you know, this is not. So you tell me that you're yelling at your kid, you know, you know, I'm human. I might think to myself, stop yelling at your kid. But but I'm not going to say, oh, you horrible person. You know, I mean, it's like, OK, so so, you know.

Papa Rick (07:59.216)
Mm-hmm

Jennie (07:59.888)
Man.

Jennie (08:03.216)
Right.

Steve Anderson (08:07.578)
do you feel about that? And then if the person's like, oh man, I feel like crap afterwards, but they've, um, or the kid was in danger and so I needed to yell. And then maybe it's like, well, you know what, maybe yelling to keep your kid from getting hit by a car is excellent parenting, you know, but yeah, right. But maybe when you're yelling because the, the grade isn't what you're

Papa Rick (08:26.12)
Yeah, that's justified use of force. Yeah.

Jennie (08:26.191)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Anderson (08:36.43)
Is that the result that you want? So, you know, I think vulnerability is built into the process and, and you can't get there though, unless you prove that yes, I'm somebody you can say this stuff to, and I'm not going to, you know, move straight to judgment or correction. You know, it's that, that fixing thing. Um, so yeah, I think it's, it's a huge part of it, but it's.

Jennie (08:45.252)
Yeah.

Jennie (08:53.318)
Yeah.

Jennie (08:58.255)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (09:05.49)
interwoven is just part of the practice. And I think it's something that we can all do, right, with if we're consciously aware, right? And that's the tricky part. And one of the things I call the program, the best dad program, that's the one that I do, and it's not a great dad. And it's the best dad, if I had parentheses, I'd put in the moment, right? Because if I'm exhausted,

Jennie (09:29.146)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (09:29.738)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (09:32.49)
Right? Maybe the best that I can be is just that I cool it and don't respond to something that's going on and say, right, because I'm tired, I'm stressed out from work. If I, my response is not going to be proportional. So, hey, kids, this is important. We're going to, we're going to deal with it. But not today because I'm not that at that spot. Right? Whereas another day, it was a great day at work. You come home, you got energy, you know, and all of a sudden this thing's blown up and you're like, because you're in the right place. You can be like, hey.

Jennie (09:37.819)
Mmm.

Jennie (09:50.18)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (10:01.206)
What's going on? Come on, tell me what's going on. You know, and you can, you know, to be your best in the moment has so much going into it. And that's one of the things that I think it's important. There's two things that I think men should really, that help men out a lot. And one is understanding the mechanics of our brain, right? Why, because so much of the, and you've to even, you know, the last two, or not the last two, but a couple of your hosts were talking about stuff that could have been straight out of neuroscience, right?

Jennie (10:03.918)
Oh yeah.

Jennie (10:22.031)
Mmm.

Jennie (10:30.427)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (10:30.614)
Feng Shui, setting up your environment. You know, one of the things I took a neuroscience for coaches, it was 14 week course and it was awesome. And it talked, one of the things it talked about is you have to set your environment up, environment always wins, right? But if you want to lose 10 pounds, it's not going to happen if you keep bringing donuts into the kitchen. So, you know, there's a simple one, or if you want to play catch with your daughter, you make sure.

Jennie (10:33.968)
Hmm.

Jennie (10:50.733)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (10:52.548)
That's right.

Steve Anderson (10:56.938)
that the glove and ball is somewhere where you can find it and you don't have to go searching in the garage or a closet and you're gonna lose the momentum. And so some of the things, right? Like just figuring out how the brain responds to the situation and how emotions get kind of, responses get hardwired in, that's a huge thing. The other thing goes into the stories that we tell, right? The mythology of parent, the mythology of being a father, right, what to me does it mean to be a father? And what are the other stories?

Jennie (11:00.654)
Uh huh.

Papa Rick (11:04.148)
Make it easy, yeah.

Jennie (11:04.432)
Yep.

Jennie (11:20.956)
Mmm.

Steve Anderson (11:27.262)
And some of us have been propped up. So we have a funny story about everything we do, nothing could go wrong. And that's going to set up this whole bunch of things that don't work. Some of us have been told that we're not worth it. Maybe some parent wasn't emotionally there. And so we've internalized that. And so there's either one of those stories, you're great and perfect and can't make mistakes or you're not worth it. Both of those. How do they not show up?

Papa Rick (11:42.197)
Yeah.

Jennie (11:55.715)
Yeah. Those are both. Yeah.

Steve Anderson (11:57.238)
Right, so looking at and rewriting those can be huge and changing how we react.

Papa Rick (11:57.385)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (12:05.488)
It's a lot of work. You got to be, like you're talking about awareness and practice, you know, that's a, when you go through something like that, to get through something like that, that's a lot of work, you have to be forgiving of yourself to make that journey back through.

Steve Anderson (12:21.33)
Yeah, I put it like this. Sorry, I just say, being a parent is like being on a journey and they give you the packing list after you arrive at your destination. You know, thanks.

Jennie (12:23.675)
That's okay, go ahead.

Jennie (12:32.522)
Yes, yes!

Papa Rick (12:32.548)
I like that. It's a great metaphor or analogy or whatever it is.

Jennie (12:37.503)
I ended up saying that is like being a good parent requires you to look backwards at your own childhood and where you're at now because of it and then reweaving the stories you want to pass on to your children. Like becoming a parent requires you to go backwards first.

Steve Anderson (12:58.962)
And then, and here's the tricky part too, and I've done this myself. We need to be the parent our children need and not the one that we wanted growing up. You know, because when I started in this, right, it's like, I'm going to be the dad I needed. And it's like, whoa, okay, that's a starting point. But it's like, Steve, your boys are very different than you. And it's like, oh crap. Now I got to figure out what.

Jennie (13:11.146)
Hmm.

Jennie (13:26.255)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Anderson (13:29.034)
what they need. But it's a decent starting point, but it's a starting point. Definitely not the end.

Papa Rick (13:34.496)
Yeah.

Jennie (13:35.291)
I agree with that. And I've read that quote a hundred times online. There's a meme that says, if you want to be a good parent or whatever, if you want to be a good parent, be the adult you needed when you were a kid. And I think that as an initial mindset shift, I think that's fantastic place to start, like you said. But then there's also like each child that you have,

is going to be very unique and very different and have different needs. And so your job as the parent is not just to parent yourself because then you're just projecting yourself onto your kids. It's to look, it's to be very intentional and to pay close attention and get to know your children very intimately individually and to parent them the way they each need to be parented.

Steve Anderson (14:28.65)
Yeah. I think that meme is, is great for, you know, uncles and aunts and adults working with teenagers, you know, and it was really a part of, it's a part of my healing process was. So when I grew up and just super short, both of my folks dealt with mental illness. So you know, I had food, there was shelter, but there was challenges, right? And there were things that I did. Um, my coping mechanisms looked good on the outside and actually were right. If I was really good in school.

Jennie (14:36.208)
Mmm.

Steve Anderson (14:59.042)
Nobody would ask about what's going on at home, right? So my coping strategies on the other hand, I'm doing well in school and, you know, people know what's going on. And that, though, was not moving me forward emotionally, like where I needed to be, you know, to be in a healthy relationships as an adult and just things like that. And when I went through a mankind project, they have a really neat

Jennie (15:02.011)
Well...

Steve Anderson (15:27.81)
good program for a weekend where you start looking at those stories, right? And rewriting the tapes. But after that, I did that and I'm like, ooh, this is, this is good. I'm starting to touch in on learning to express myself because I've kept all of this, you know, buried down. And then through there, they said, Hey, there's this group, Boys To Men, there's Mentoring Network of Minnesota and they mentor teens. And I'm like, Oh, that's, that's okay. I'm gonna go check this out. So I went and the first, there's a weekend training.

Papa Rick (15:42.128)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (15:58.442)
A lot of us meant love a good weekend training, right? So you go and you do something, you got a purpose, and you're going to leave with tools. Yes. Give me some tools, I'm going to fix it. And when we walked in, they had a part of the group was actually the teenage boys who are part of the organization and walk in and one of them goes, where were you? And it's like, you know, where, and I'm like, oh man, right? Because, and it was just, it-

Papa Rick (16:02.132)
Get you fired up. Big dump. Yeah.

Jennie (16:03.207)
You're like, hi, when you leave. Yeah.

Steve Anderson (16:26.206)
it just hit and that's where I started. Right. Okay. I want to be the adult for these teenage boys that I'm mentoring that I wanted in my life or that I needed in my life. Right. And so it was a great place to start. And so if you're, I think if there's anybody out there listening, you're going, where do I start? Yeah. Start with that one. And then just know after you do that, then you can get Jenny to what you were talking about. Right.

Papa Rick (16:36.716)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (16:37.294)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Anderson (16:52.918)
great place to start, but then it's about knowing that the people that you're with, understanding their uniqueness and their individuality and being there for the adult that they need in their lives. But that takes a while. I mean, I'm 50 plus. It's like I didn't... And I'm slow to the game. You have to give yourself some grace.

Jennie (17:04.837)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (17:17.224)
That's right. You have to give yourself a chance to dig out of whatever, you know, a lot of people who have had trauma, I think you have to have a reason to go become self-aware and do the digging, to do the work. So that I think there's always, it seems like there's a lot of times some work to be done to dig back out. You don't come up with this stuff when you're 16.

Steve Anderson (17:40.714)
Yeah. And, you know, for me, doing that work, right, and working with the mentoring, it's, oh, and I don't think enough people realize about when it comes to volunteering, you know, like, oh, Steve, you were volunteering with boys. What a great guy. And it's like, you know, thanks. But really there's a very good, selfish reason to volunteer and to help people.

Papa Rick (18:03.27)
Hahaha.

Steve Anderson (18:10.91)
Right? Because man, does that feel good? I mean, it just, you know, it feels good. You talk about purpose, you know, what are you going to do today? You know, well, I'm going to, you know, am I going to watch six hours of television or a screen or am I going to go help some, you know, be involved in something for a couple of hours? And it's like, man, usually that being involved in a couple of hours, unless you've overextended yourself and that's a whole other thing that right, that men can do, you know, that is.

Jennie (18:14.18)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (18:40.338)
And that's self care, right? To me, helping other people is absolute form of self care because it gets it out of your head. See other people struggle.

Jennie (18:43.104)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (18:48.935)
Well, we were meant to live that way. We were meant to be in community and to, once you're an adult, you reach back to the next generation and help lift them up and bring them forward. And yeah, we were meant to work together.

Papa Rick (18:48.948)
You hear either per-

Papa Rick (19:04.384)
Back to guys we were talking to, it helps to be in a group sometimes with guys. It's one on one can be awkward or sometimes, right? I mean, it's private too, but it's sometimes when you're in a group of guys and somebody's brave and goes first and says, Hey, I've got a challenge here. Right. You'll then, then this huge discussion will kick off with shared experiences and you being part of the group, you get to hear other perspectives and go, aha.

Steve Anderson (19:04.95)
case.

Jennie (19:09.991)
I don't know.

Papa Rick (19:32.816)
Recall things and yet it's a real, that's a real good thing. Groups of groups of guys talking like that, but boys to men. Yeah.

Steve Anderson (19:38.88)
Ha!

And it's scary, right? But if you're that first person who talks to, it's like, also, that's practice in leadership. You know, and there's that vulnerability you're asking about too. It's like, you know, who's, I used to have a joke when every once in a while it'd be very rare because of community college level, but I get to teach a little bit of poetry every once in a while. And I would say, I'd go, okay, so for the men out there,

Jennie (19:50.465)
Mm.

Steve Anderson (20:08.258)
Who's ready this weekend to stand up at the party and start reading some poetry? They would all start laughing, and then I'd bring out some World War I warrior poets. And bring out this other... Right, and I mean, it's like, look, men do write.

Papa Rick (20:13.199)
haha

Jennie (20:22.757)
Mmmm

Papa Rick (20:23.566)
Oh, nice, yeah.

Steve Anderson (20:31.166)
And have been, you know, it's one of those funny things, right? If you look at one of the criticisms that you'll hear, and I'm a, I was in education for 20 years, so I know all of them and not all of them, but I know plenty of them and a lot of them are fair is that we just focused on these male authors and yet we get to a point. Now where it's like men in poetry are some weird separated thing and it's, you know, men don't do poetry and it's like, how did that happen? But you know, it's just that, that they would laugh because

Why would you do that? But so, you know, the question I have for you, Jenny, is you have been talking about going backwards and I think that's awesome. And you're doing a podcast with your dad. So my guess is you got a pretty decent relationship going on. So how, how have you, how does that, cause I think a lot of like, I ended up as an adult having a pretty good relationship with my parents. They've both passed now, but there was definitely a long period where it was like kind of, you know,

Papa Rick (21:13.92)
Totally.

Steve Anderson (21:28.514)
how I see you on the holidays. What do you think, what's gone into you having a strong adult relationship with your dad and how do you think that shapes things that you do?

Jennie (21:30.673)
Yeah.

Jennie (21:44.151)
Ooh. Well, I think that there was a lot of teenage years, middle school and teenage years, where we had like really deep conversations about very real life things. We would talk about parenting. We would talk about my relationships, like my boyfriend. And.

Papa Rick (21:45.515)
Yahoo!

Papa Rick (22:12.86)
Poison, yeah.

Jennie (22:13.919)
and what it meant to be a girlfriend or a boyfriend in a relationship. And we would talk about religion and politics. And there was never really, I never felt like there was a subject that was off limits. And so I think that laid the groundwork for, and then well, and then there was college where I had.

a bunch of mental health issues that he, you know, came and helped. Yeah. Well, I mean, he, he helped find a psychiatrist. He like, he was there helping me through that. And and then, yeah, I mean, we I've been in Colorado for

Papa Rick (22:45.484)
caught up with you, cancer caught up with her and yeah.

Jennie (23:06.339)
over 11 years now and he's still in Illinois. So we don't see each other very often. And it's very much usually on a holiday or something. But when I was starting to have the idea for this podcast, I thought I was thinking to myself, who could I talk to on camera? Cause I am not, I am not.

a show up on social media, take pictures of myself, be on camera kind of person at all. And I was like, who would I be the most comfortable and natural and authentic talking to? And who would have a perspective to offer on this podcast? And it was, I mean, it wasn't even like a list of people. It was just immediately it was my dad. And then

And then from there, it became like, ooh, this is cool. There's a whole intergenerational thing. And we've had, and that's not to say we've fought. We have had disagreements. We lived together for a while I was in college. And there were conflicts. And I've called him out on some parenting stuff, especially when I got older.

Steve Anderson (24:06.603)
But

Papa Rick (24:15.328)
drag stuff up sometimes, you know.

Jennie (24:32.135)
And he actually presented a note that I had written him once at my wedding during his, his father of the bride speech and, um, that I had called him out on. Cause I found a cigarettes in his car.

Papa Rick (24:37.045)
at your, in my dad's speech, yeah.

Steve Anderson (24:49.699)
Okay.

Papa Rick (24:49.754)
I took to smoking in the car thinking I was being sneaky. Yeah.

Jennie (24:52.923)
getting away with it, yeah. And I gave him a full, I remember giving him, like he was sitting in a chair in the living room and I was standing up and I, wagging my finger at him, giving him a full blown lecture on being alive to walk me down the aisle. So I think that there has just been a level of authenticity allowed inside of our relationship.

Steve Anderson (25:01.646)
Thank you.

Papa Rick (25:08.874)
Yeah, baby.

Steve Anderson (25:09.974)
Oh, nice.

Papa Rick (25:21.12)
That's the word is authenticity. I've always tried to be authentic with you.

Jennie (25:25.544)
Even when he was imperfect or I was imperfect or he didn't like what I was saying and yelled back or even though it was imperfect, I think that there was a rare level of authenticity that we had. Ever since starting this podcast, I've had so many women tell me how lucky I am to have what I have with my dad because they don't have it.

They don't have, like they might love their dad, their dad loves them. They like, everything is great, but it's not, I guess as deep or as intimate.

Papa Rick (26:00.424)
Hmm.

Papa Rick (26:05.088)
We talked at the outset of this about how, you know, there weren't a lot of other father-daughter podcasts out there. And I've found a couple, but they went on 10 episodes and kind of petered out. And I suspect it's because they ran into difficult subjects and, you know, didn't, it got too painful or something. Because we had some...

Jennie (26:13.783)
If any, I don't think there's any that we've found.

Papa Rick (26:31.384)
We're kind of smoothing things out now, but it did drug stuff up and we had some pretty serious discussions, especially in the early days, you know.

Jennie (26:36.087)
Yeah, we had some triggering behind the scenes conversations.

Papa Rick (26:42.667)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (26:42.766)
I was in it. I think though that it's so important though that too, that you share that right for people looking at this relationship. And you know, one of the things I know, and I think so when I met Katie, that's my wife, uh, her boys were four and nine. And it's so luckily I had the benefit I've been, I'd been in working with boys and boys to men, you know, so I work with a lot of boys who had, whose parents were divorced.

Jennie (26:48.677)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (26:51.722)
Oh yeah.

Steve Anderson (27:12.426)
And so I knew, you know, some of the things to avoid. I also, you know, I knew number one to is going to, my job was number one to just be patient, you know, and give them time for the change. And yes, it, um, oh yeah, I forgot where it's going for a second. And this, but I know that at some point I am sure both of my boys, well, one's already easy young man in college and the other's

Jennie (27:25.339)
Being the new guy.

Papa Rick (27:27.765)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (27:42.326)
10th grade. I have no doubt in my 20s or 30s, I don't know what it's going to be, but they'll each probably in their own way, you know, come back and say, dad, what the hell were you doing when... And they're going to say something that maybe I'll remember, maybe I'm not, and I'm preparing myself. You know, it's good to come. And then it's just like, you know, take it in.

Papa Rick (27:55.518)
Yes.

Jennie (27:56.356)
Yeah.

Jennie (28:04.016)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (28:08.436)
You don't want to do it too much. You don't want to second guess and overthink too much, but you do back to the mindful and awareness thing. You do want to have a good reason for what you do. So before you have a big reaction to anything, you kind of want to go, yeah, okay, I can explain this in a court of law. It's like, I can explain this to my child why I'm doing this way, why I punished, why I didn't.

Steve Anderson (28:19.563)
Oh yeah.

Steve Anderson (28:35.786)
Well, let's say this, Rick, I hope I can explain it. And if I can't, I'm going to go, I'm a, I don't know. Gosh, that sounds really stupid in hindsight. Or I'm like, you know, it was the, I thought it made sense at the moment. Um, it didn't. And then, and then right at least no matter what happens, right. How much he won't be carrying it around. Right. This resentment.

Papa Rick (28:39.721)
Well, that's right.

Papa Rick (28:47.428)
There you go, yeah.

Steve Anderson (29:05.606)
this thing. And if I just do an okay job of responding and taking it in, we're going to be able to move forward. And one of the things that my dad wasn't able to do for the longest time, and it drove me crazy as a son, he was gone a lot, actually moved out of the house when I was a teenager to, he had to go and retrain for a new career. And so he was,

because he burned out on the last, on the main one. And he was just gone and emotionally unavailable. And when I would bring this up in my 20s, in your early 30s, he would say, and I would, it was like a mantra. His dad died when he was five.

end of story. And I'm like, as an adult, I can say, Oh man, I am so sorry. You know, that your, your dad died when you were five. That, that must've been horrible. I know your mom dated alcoholics and you know, you were anxious as a kid and you throw all of that together. It's

and I'm your son, damn it, you weren't there for me. You know, and it's like, and he, he was so angry. And he told me this later, he was so angry at God for taking his dad. And that's the way that he looked at it, that he couldn't, until he got past that. He wasn't in a spot to own how he showed up as a father in my life. And so there was always when he couldn't.

Jennie (30:23.835)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (30:24.681)
Yeah.

Jennie (30:32.679)
Hmm.

Jennie (30:44.261)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (30:49.162)
And it wasn't like, I mean, I wasn't even, I was just looking for acknowledgement, you know? And as long as he couldn't do that, there was always an extra distance between us that, you know, maybe I could have done a better job on, but I wasn't, you know? Cause like, no, dammit. The son in me just needed that acknowledgement. And then when he got to the point where he could, it was like, okay.

Jennie (31:06.788)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (31:07.373)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (31:17.577)
Yes.

Steve Anderson (31:18.61)
Now we can go forward because we're not coming from this imaginary past, right? That didn't have, you know, ups and downs. Cause if we only talk about the ups, that's, that's make believe. And you know, if we're only focused on the down, that's make believe too, but you, we gotta go for both. To me need to be in that story.

Jennie (31:25.144)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (31:34.815)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (31:40.671)
Yeah.

dealing with... Go ahead, sweetie.

Jennie (31:46.201)
I think that's such a huge, in my generation, it's, and I don't know how it compares to other generations, but I think the millennial, the elder millennials for the record, we are nowhere near Gen Z. No.

Papa Rick (32:01.62)
Elder? Oh, we're subdividing the generations now. Okay, elder, millennium.

Ha ha ha!

Jennie (32:13.935)
There is a lot of us, I guess, in my age group, who talk about our parents' ability to acknowledge our pain when we present it to them. So I'm in the age group you're talking about, Steve. I'm in my 30s. And the last year or two has really

I blame starting this podcast for most of it, has really drug up a lot of my own stuff that I had worked through a lot of it in my own therapy and things like that. But I hadn't actually confronted my parents about these things. In doing so, there's been a lot of acknowledgement and.

and confrontation, arguing, et cetera. But anyway, in my generation and on social media, it's a huge theme now of part of being a parent is being capable of acknowledging when your child reflects back to you that you hurt them in some way, whether you meant to or not, and how important it is that whether they're two or 25,

If your child tells you this thing that you did hurt me, all that child needs is for you to acknowledge that pain and to, in some cases, accept responsibility for the action that you took. It doesn't mean that you are a terrible parent. It doesn't mean that you didn't do a million other things right. It's that this thing, this action you took against me, someone who completely relied on you and totally trusted you,

Papa Rick (34:08.876)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (34:10.295)
I felt betrayed, I felt hurt, I felt whatever by this action. Just acknowledge it. Just like you would a best friend or a partner. Like if any adult came to you and said, hey, when you did this, it hurt my feelings. Most people would be like, oh, like I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to do that. Like why is it so hard for us to do that with our kids?

Steve Anderson (34:28.703)
Hmm.

Papa Rick (34:35.592)
I think it gets back to the awareness. It's, I don't know, it harkens me back to the conversation about dads and the being vulnerable and letting your guard, you know, if you're kind of authoritarian, then you don't want to let it show that that's not what I meant to do or that was a bad thing to do or, you know, it's tough to be authentic. And we carry those little wounds, you know, sometimes you have to educate the other person that they wounded you.

You know, it's like, oh, why'd you do that? That was a wound. And it's like, well, I thought that was, I thought that, I thought that was okay. What's wrong with that? And then you have to say, you know.

Steve Anderson (35:13.002)
And I think you're right. And to add to it, right, and to the complexity of it is I think acknowledging the pain that they felt, yes.

Papa Rick (35:21.906)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (35:30.778)
where they scale it, that's the part that, you know, as a parent, you get to use your judgment on. Because I think like if, I would never tell somebody you didn't feel that way, right? Because feelings just are, right? But one of the things that comes, and this is out of that neuroscience course too, is talking about reframing. And this is not to make an excuse for what happens.

Jennie (35:47.943)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (35:48.518)
Sure.

Steve Anderson (35:59.862)
Right. But if along with that pain. Right. Like, Dad, you did this or mom, you did this. So I'll never have a partner. You know, and I was like, Whoa. Hold on. I know that's how you're feeling, you know. But then you have to, you know, to move into that, you know, giving some options. Is it possible?

Papa Rick (36:12.048)
Yeah. Catastrophize about it, yeah.

Jennie (36:14.419)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (36:28.098)
that you can be mad at me or feel really hurt, right? And that both of us can learn from this and maybe not today, maybe not in a month, sometimes it helps to put a timeframe out there. But maybe in three months, you'll be at a spot where you can look at this and say, oh, now I've, it doesn't hurt as much and I can learn this and apply this. So, ooh, if I do get in a relationship, I'll make sure to speak up.

when this happens or I'll be more aware. And so I think that's the part that the scale of it is where denying somebody's emotions to me just seems like is a losing proposition. You don't know what they're feeling. You don't, you know, asking questions about the scale of the ramifications, right? Where it's going to go. And there are times when you just be there. I had, I was at a, it was awesome. My niece.

Jennie (37:14.638)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Anderson (37:27.186)
and was in town with my great nieces and nephews. And one of the boys had a hard week and was just having, we're in a hotel, in a pool having fun, and he just had a meltdown, right? And he's about seven, eight years old. And that was not a time for reframing. You know, if you know what,

Papa Rick (37:52.599)
Hahaha.

Jennie (37:52.939)
Right.

Steve Anderson (37:57.278)
It was, you know, I, mom had talked to him. He was in a spot where he's just going to stay there for a while. You know, I went there and I'm, hey, bye. You know what I mean? Sometimes too, just that, that presence, right. Is

Papa Rick (38:11.968)
to stand, that's the time to stand by like you were talking about before. You know, you just go be there.

Steve Anderson (38:15.691)
Yeah.

Jennie (38:19.963)
There's even, I mean, even so a seven and eight year old who's perfectly capable of some logic and some reason after the fact, there's even like, I take care of an infant right now, he's 11 months old and he doesn't have language yet. He's not able to tell us what's wrong, why he's crying or screaming or upset or whatever. And he,

just this week was having some tummy issues. And there's, I mean, there's just nothing you could do for him except hold him. And I would just hold him. He would just whimper on my shoulder and cry and yell. And I would just tell him like, get it out. I know it hurts, it hurts. I'm so sorry, it hurts right now. Like just let it out. And once he was, the pain passed, he quieted down and snuggled into my shoulder.

for a few minutes and then he popped his head up and wanted to get down and play. But it was like there was nothing I could say.

in that moment to that infant. And there's really nothing you can say no matter what age until that feeling and energy. We've talked about this before, emotion, energy and motion, until that feeling passes. And it takes about 90 seconds for an emotion to pass through our bodies. And unless there's continued pain, continued source of pain. But a, but a,

but a single emotion takes about 90 seconds to pass through our bodies. And did I say poop? I said pass, didn't I?

Papa Rick (39:59.892)
poop through our body.

Papa Rick (40:05.433)
You said about the first half of it, so I finished it for you. Sorry.

Jennie (40:08.127)
Oh, um, and he, and so, so anyway, yeah, there's, you just gotta, you gotta let it, let them, that part of it be what it is. There's nothing you can do in that moment to make it stop, to stop the storm, to interrupt the storm. Like, and in fact, most of the time you're just going to make it worse. If you try to, you're just going to make it last longer.

Papa Rick (40:32.332)
can't fix it. Yeah, and that's a that goes on for forever too. I mean layers of onions you have to deal with things in stages and what you're doing with that baby is kind of what you have to do with people later on is you kind of have to be patient and yeah I can't fix this for you but I'm here with you buddy and you know what we're talking about before some of the things we said before. That's kind of the system you know in a lot of situations you just be there with them if you can't fix it.

Steve Anderson (40:34.23)
You know, and I think...

Steve Anderson (41:04.242)
And there's actually one of those areas where...

There is a time to share your sadness, your fear and your concerns for your child. You know, at any age, and there's also times where you're there, your heart might be breaking because you're watching your child in this pain or in this sadness. I mean, I think for me, you know, it's like, whenever I see the, you know, the video of the kid who has a birthday party and nobody shows up, you know, and it's like, thank God for cops or firefighters, right? Cause they find out about it and they show up. It's like, that is.

Papa Rick (41:34.033)
aww Yeah

Steve Anderson (41:40.782)
such a, even talking about no real story, but know that it's happened. Like I get this, that to, you know, no, okay, we're going to make the best out of this that we can, know you said, and you know, do something. There are times where that, that stoicism that, you know, see, there's a time when it's really good. And I'm saying it is time. There are times when it's really good.

that we can compartmentalize our feelings. Because, okay, nope, we're here. But I do think, when my dad died, and my boys, their biological father died. It was alcoholism, and so that was rough. But I think when my dad died, that was hard, and it was one of those cases too where, you know.

Papa Rick (42:12.488)
Yeah, for sure.

Steve Anderson (42:38.026)
I didn't hide my sadness. You know, I also, I wouldn't, you know, ask my boys to carry the load of the sadness that I'm carrying that I'm missing from my father. You know what I mean? That's because I had a parent that it overshares, makes me cringe and it's like, no, you gotta keep certain things are for your adult friends or your partner.

Papa Rick (42:51.468)
Right, yeah.

Papa Rick (43:04.08)
Age appropriate, yeah.

Steve Anderson (43:05.802)
Yeah, but definitely to, you know, I want my boys to see me when I'm mad and handling it, not, you know what I mean? Like, ah, I'm mad, but I'm not out of control, right? And what do I do with it? I want them to see me sad. I want them to see me happy. I want them to see me, you know, flirting with my wife and they'll go, ah, but it's like, you know what, in a relationship, you know, you make your partner feel good. And it's fun and joyful to, you know, to

Jennie (43:18.122)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (43:26.715)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Papa Rick (43:31.52)
Yep.

Steve Anderson (43:35.214)
to model all of those things. So they'll do their own with it, right? But at least they'll say, oh, you know what? I can be affectionate. I can be affectionate around people. I can be sad around people. And I think that's one of our jobs, right, is to do get comfortable. And what Rick White just said, right, that age appropriate. You know?

Jennie (43:42.503)
Hmm.

Jennie (43:51.95)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Anderson (44:05.522)
sharing of emotion. And you know, one of the, and this was a, this was a long time ago, I was probably about 20. I will never forget this moment. Um, so I was about 20, my, when I was in the army or just gotten right around getting out of the army, my folks had almost got a divorce when I was in basic training. So it was that separation was for school, but it was also maybe the marriage. And so it had been a pretty chaotic, and I have an older brother and you know, his

He did a lot of drinking and partying. And so they were yelling at each other and I was just quietly in the back getting good grades going, I think I can control things if I get, keep getting these good grades. Right. Um, and I don't know what happened, but we had this conversation and it must've been around one of the Christmases around there. And we started joking about how bad things were.

Jennie (44:45.095)
I'm sorry.

Steve Anderson (45:03.898)
And all I can remember is like one of us saying how we're going to be living in a station wagon, you know, somewhere in a parking lot. And so it was a dark humor, but it was like, oh my God, we're finally admitting things are crappy. And so we were laughing and then we went back to denying and, you know, pushing that stuff aside. But there was this 10 minute moment where as a family, we were laughing about how hard it was.

Papa Rick (45:04.492)
Hmm.

Jennie (45:08.827)
Hmm.

Jennie (45:17.669)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (45:21.952)
Hahaha.

Steve Anderson (45:33.534)
you know, it's been 30 years and I still remember that moment. And it was, it was, you know, it was beautiful. So not all the beautiful moments as a parent are actually beautiful and are going to be in a Hallmark movie. You know, they can, it's going through the mud together too, or having that confrontation. It's not fun.

Jennie (45:52.057)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (45:55.701)
A band of brothers thing, like war buddies. You know, it was not fun, but there's something enduring about the relationship it builds, you know.

Steve Anderson (46:06.7)
Yeah, we did get go through it together.

Papa Rick (46:08.872)
Yeah. Hmm.

Jennie (46:10.475)
I've said several times that there's a, like yes, you need fun times and good times and happiness and joy to bond healthfully in any relationship. But the thing that bonds you the quickest and the most for longevity is going through hard times together. And that's what

Papa Rick (46:36.073)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (46:40.067)
You know, it's that and that's not to say that like, Oh, don't worry about creating trauma in your family because it'll bond you guys for life. No, please. Like that's what we're trying to do. I'm talking about hard external hard times and invite like, um, uncontrolled circumstantial hard times. And that's, you know, often the marriages that you see that work are the people who, yeah, they have a lot in common or they get along really well, or they treat each other really nicely.

Papa Rick (46:49.101)
Yeah, don't go there.

Jennie (47:09.295)
But it's the couples, the people who are in relationship who can get through hard stuff. The death of parents or family members or something, a child getting sick or financial ruin or people who can navigate difficulty together without falling apart or blaming each other or turning on each other.

Papa Rick (47:15.232)
They have weathered the storm.

Jennie (47:38.107)
those are the relationships that are the strongest. And I think that translates, it does, into trauma, into siblings, into our families who acknowledge this thing that happened or that we went through together or how we used to act or, yeah.

Steve Anderson (47:41.282)
Great.

Steve Anderson (47:56.438)
Well, and I think, and I think taking it to like our kids in school, like when I was growing up, you know, I played football till 10th grade. You can't tell in the video, but you know, barely five, seven, and everybody was bigger. And it's like, it gets tired being a tackling dummy. So I'm like, okay, done with that. I played a little baseball. Right. And that was it for sports, right. And the team wasn't that close. And so I was like, you know, sports. And I actually did some knowledge bowl, which was.

Papa Rick (48:10.092)
Mmm.

Papa Rick (48:13.951)
Yeah, you had to work, man.

Steve Anderson (48:25.59)
pretty good when I think back at it. But when I left, I'm like, sports, big deal. Band, big deal. But then seeing my sons, right, like in band, in tennis, in the friendships, right, in the things and, you know, going out and playing band for the football team when it's 10 degrees out, you know, or the team, you know, yeah, that winning or losing, it's like I have...

Jennie (48:46.123)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (48:46.888)
My mouthpiece sticks to my lips, yeah.

Jennie (48:49.188)
Yep.

Steve Anderson (48:52.83)
I have definitely flipped around from not caring when I was in school to be, you know, if your son or daughter likes sports, band, theater, you know, you name it, if, you know, supported as much as you can, you know, so they can have those relationships with their peers. Though I, even as I say this, I do think in some, from Minnesota, soccer parents are, I'm not soccer, hockey parents.

Jennie (49:02.663)
Hmm.

Papa Rick (49:18.285)
haha

Jennie (49:21.927)
Uhhhhhh...

Papa Rick (49:22.126)
Oh, okay. Okay.

Steve Anderson (49:22.706)
are crazy because the only time kids and god bless you hockey Minnesota hockey parents um because what you do the sacrifice the only good time for ice is always taken so if you've got a kid in hockey you're getting up at 5 30 in the morning to get to the rink at six or at night it's whatever you can tell if it's a hockey parent because they look like this it's because they're just exhausted and tired so that one

Papa Rick (49:30.012)
Yeah, you better just.

Papa Rick (49:40.918)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (49:48.076)
They're haggard all the time, yeah.

Steve Anderson (49:52.426)
I think, wow, that's tricky. You gotta make sure you can still stay awake in the car. But in general, sports, band, theater, if we can give our kids opportunities to be, in one sense, right, be on a team or in a band or a theater group. It's like, now they get those opportunities too to really explore who they are and how do they react to setbacks and success.

Jennie (49:54.875)
Right?

Jennie (50:06.584)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (50:16.04)
Yeah. New groups of people and new activities. And, you know, as a parent, it's good to support that. They can't get themselves to all the practices and games and, and stuff. So yeah, that's the, as a, as a parent this day and age, uh, that's a, that's a really good use of time is to support your kids, some of your kids stuff.

Steve Anderson (50:26.764)
Yep.

Steve Anderson (50:37.542)
And yeah, and when you think about how hard it is, the challenge facing getting kids off social media and their phones when, you know, it's so addictive and so much great stuff to it. If they're in a sport, there's at least two hours where they're being physical, right? If they're in a band, they're not on their phone, right? They're learning music, appreciating music, playing theater, acting things out or building sets. It's like those are, I remember a long time ago, I was, I can't remember which of the book was, but it talked about.

Papa Rick (50:55.598)
Oh god.

Steve Anderson (51:06.846)
If you're going to take something away from a kid, right? Like, I don't want you to do this anymore. It's like you better replace it with something just as good or better. Right? So you can't say, don't use your phone. Well, what do you want me to do instead? Right?

Papa Rick (51:16.756)
Yes, sir.

Papa Rick (51:23.105)
Yeah. We used to do karate together with the kids and I, and that was always the thing is they got older. They started seeing other things to do and it's like, well, and it got harder as we, as we went up the ranks and once in a while, one of them would say they wanted to quit and I'd say, well, what are you going to do instead? You're not just going to stay home and watch TV. You know, it's what's the other activity. And.

Jennie (51:45.316)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (51:49.701)
Eventually, I think we lost the boys to basketball. There was basketball in the little town we were there and stopped.

Jennie (51:55.343)
We were, we were in, I was in dance, volleyball, track. We were all in theater. We were all in like 800 activities. And eventually it just, we couldn't maintain karate two to three evenings a week anymore. We had just so many other practices.

Papa Rick (52:01.288)
Yeah, you did other things. Yeah.

Papa Rick (52:11.95)
It was a small town. Everybody was on every team, practically, kind of thing. But yeah, that's, activities are tremendous.

Steve Anderson (52:15.882)
Oh, okay.

Jennie (52:23.131)
So Steve, I wanna hop backwards to the very beginning of our conversation because you said something that I think is really important for parents to hear. And that's that being the best version of you is going to look different every single day. Being at 100% is your, let's see, I read this once.

And I'm probably going to quote it incorrectly, but it was life changing for me because, you know, everyone's always like, give 100% every day, give 100% every day, and 100% is going to look different for you every day. So I might have a day where I talk lovingly to my spouse, where I get my whole wish, you know, my whole to-do list done, where I...

Papa Rick (53:03.683)
Hehe

Jennie (53:17.947)
get the dogs outside for all the exercise they need, or where I get my kids to school on time and I eat the salad and I do all the things. And the next day I might be sleep deprived and exhausted and or I tweaked my back during my workout yesterday when I was giving 100%, and I might not be capable of all of those things that next day. And so my 100% is going to look different.

Steve Anderson (53:38.347)
Yeah.

Jennie (53:47.047)
than I did the day before. And I think that that, well, let me ask you this. Do you, especially working with men, do you run into...

men who have super high expectations, like unrealistic expectations of themselves woven into these stories in their head.

Steve Anderson (54:12.334)
Oh, for sure. I mean, I think that's so much of the pressure, right, we put on ourselves, right? And now if you think about too, the expectations have shifted and it hasn't been a lesson of any of the workload. So there's still that expectation that you're going to put in the long hours, but you're also now supposed to be home and available. And it's like, wait a second. That's...

That's physically impossible, right? So there's, so, you know, some of it is expectations. So much of it too is, you know, when you come home, for example, it's like, well, or maybe you've been home all day, right? Cause we're half of us are, you know, have moved from our home office, right? Well,

Steve Anderson (55:07.846)
what is your partner need? What does your dog need? And what is your, what do your, your pets need? And it's like, there's a, there's a ratio, right? I mean, sometimes you're going to have two people in the house who really need you. What do you do? How do you handle that? Sometimes it might be, you know, man, I might be feeling just, maybe I was, you know, looking at a picture of my dad and I'm, I'm feeling really like nostalgic and I want to have this, you know, so I'm going to go, you know, bond with my son. And he's

really wants to study for a math test, or he's online with his friend who lives in Florida, who he hasn't seen in a month. So it's like, man, he's gonna hang out with his friend in Florida. And I mean, I think sometimes too, we show up and the people around us are living their own lives and have their own things going on. So it's the...

How often are we like totally in sync, right? Like I get home, or I don't get home, I work from home, right? But it's like, so I'm downstairs, my wife is upstairs, how often do we both come up at the same time? And she's just like, I had a great, I just had a great meal meeting. I feel like joking around. And I come up and say, you know what? I just had a great podcast. Boy, aren't we both in a good mood? Let's have fun, ha ha. You know what I mean? It's like, no, I have a good podcast during or something and you go up and it was just a terrible meeting or vice versa or.

Jennie (56:09.287)
Right.

Papa Rick (56:27.626)
Ha ha

Steve Anderson (56:36.374)
You know, son comes home and he, yeah, goes straight up to his room. Like, okay, was that a big deal or not a big deal? Or he just like, so it's that, I guess, you know what happened when you were saying 100%, that was like, I'm like, ooh, I didn't like it. Right, that whole, because it's like, there's no reserve, I don't even know that if, if I'm 100% in dad mode,

Papa Rick (56:37.404)
It's complicated. It's a complicated system.

Steve Anderson (57:07.382)
then I'm 0% in husband mode. And you know what I mean? And I need at least 2% pets so they don't die. More than 2% husband mode so our relationship stays strong. So, right. They're too much work. I only got 100% of time, Rick. I got 40 here, 30 there, plants.

Jennie (57:15.469)
Right?

Papa Rick (57:19.868)
plants.

Papa Rick (57:25.456)
Once in a while. Where do I, how do I slice this pie?

Steve Anderson (57:32.374)
Yeah. But yes, thank you for coming back to that because sometimes we do really need a kick in the butt. And other times we've got to like, hold on a second. You might not be doing, you might not be the parent that you want to be that you know you can be. Okay.

You've got this acknowledgement. This is awesome. Now, great. How do you start restructuring how things are set up, right? Even the physical stuff, how do you start rescheduling your schedule? How do you start looking at the story you've been telling yourself? Seeing, you know, there's, there's so much that you can do to think about if I'm not happy right now and I make some big drastic change.

My kids aren't going to believe it for starters, right? Because if I've been a workaholic for the first 10 years of their lives, and then come home and say, I'm not, kids, we're going to spend so much time together, I'm not going to be a workaholic. Yay. They're not going to believe that, and why would they? You got to prove it. Now, if I didn't even tell them, but I said, you know what, I'm leaving 15 minutes earlier every day from work, right? Just start with something small.

Papa Rick (58:31.372)
That's right.

Jennie (58:31.564)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (58:44.451)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (58:44.905)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (58:58.462)
all of a sudden I'm home 15 minutes earlier, right? Or if I say, you know what, I'm gonna get up 15 minutes earlier and I'm gonna be there at breakfast for at least five minutes, you know, or something. So I think, and then now you get a positive shift, right? You haven't restructured your whole world because my goodness, how intimidating and chaotic is that gonna be, right? But what's a one small change you could make

Jennie (59:07.736)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (59:20.764)
Right?

Papa Rick (59:21.248)
Yeah, too big, too much, yeah.

Steve Anderson (59:28.482)
today or this week, right? And try it out, and maybe it's terrible. We get to be terrible parents sometimes, and it sucks, because we don't want to be, but it's like, ooh, I totally missed that conversation. Shit, excuse my language, but, ugh. So, okay, what happened? What happened in that situation? What was I thinking, you know, to have that time to reflect a little bit? And, right, so the next time,

Papa Rick (59:31.902)
Yep.

Jennie (59:40.631)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (59:41.544)
Yeah.

Jennie (59:53.7)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (59:54.041)
Do a little post mortem on it. Yeah.

Steve Anderson (59:58.706)
maybe I handle it a little bit better, right? And if I handle it a little bit better and I keep going like that, hopefully what our kids are gonna remember is look at dad, he tried, he changed, things got better in this area, you know, cause they're noticing, what else they got to pay attention to, you know, they can see. And so, and at the end of the day, at the end of the week, right?

Jennie (01:00:11.886)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:00:16.08)
Yeah, they will notice.

Steve Anderson (01:00:27.786)
If you can look back and say, it's like, oh, hey, what did I do well today? Right? Cool. And is there something I can do better? And kind of if you're thinking about the

Jennie (01:00:32.357)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:00:37.223)
If you can ask your kids that, that acknowledging, like if you messed up in a conversation and you go back a day or two later after reflecting and say, hey, I really don't like the way that I handled that conversation with you and I'd like to try again, can we try again? And, or even just, I didn't show up as my best self in that conversation for you and I'm sorry.

Steve Anderson (01:00:40.566)
Yeah. And

Steve Anderson (01:00:46.518)
Woo.

Papa Rick (01:00:56.175)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (01:01:05.375)
or just any acknowledgement, even straightforward to your child, admitting that you're an imperfect human sets the example that they're also allowed to make mistakes and come back and try again.

Papa Rick (01:01:19.136)
That's right. And they don't expect you to be perfect anymore. Absolutely. And it keeps those little wounds from, you know, things you didn't realize you did. You know, ideally it would cut down on those hanging around forever.

Steve Anderson (01:01:19.938)
Jenny, that's awesome.

Jennie (01:01:26.351)
festering for 30 years.

Steve Anderson (01:01:28.524)
Thank you.

Right. And that gives them the opportunity to that a week later to come up to you and say, you know, I really didn't, I kind of screwed up in school. Right. Or I wasn't telling you the truth when they said I'm not smoking those cigarettes. You know, so.

Papa Rick (01:01:40.684)
There you go.

Papa Rick (01:01:46.084)
Yeah, that's right. That's right. Exactly. Now, I think a lot of it is priorities. I know you're making me think back on my history. And I remember making the kids a priority. I mean, you there's, you've got time, we're mostly talking about slicing up time, how do we spend our time, and then money. And, you know, you have to become aware.

Jennie (01:01:46.147)
Yes!

Papa Rick (01:02:14.108)
Well, I think what we're talking about is you have to become aware that there are finite resources you have, your energy, your tank, your charge, whatever the, whatever the best metaphor is. And some days you're going to be, have a full tank. Sometimes you're not, and you're going to have, there's going to be circumstantial stuff and so you have to spend a couple of seconds in the back of your head. Periodically through the day saying, how am I going to expend my

energy, what's important now, who needs what, and it's complicated. I used to complain that there was not a book written on this. You know, raising kids, being a parent, they've been doing this a while now. Somebody ought to have made a good text. And the problem is it's just too complicated a dynamic. You know, you got to just stay at it.

Steve Anderson (01:03:03.082)
Well, and how about this too? I think there is opportunity in our obligations. So we've got two boys and my oldest son. So Katie taught my oldest how to drive, right? And just temperamentally and everything worked out. That just made sense. So I'm teaching my youngest son how to drive. And so in Minnesota, it's got to be like 50 hours in the daylight and like 15 at night.

Jennie (01:03:09.191)
Hmm.

Papa Rick (01:03:09.665)
Hmm.

Papa Rick (01:03:21.177)
Okay.

Papa Rick (01:03:30.48)
Oh my, that's a lot.

Steve Anderson (01:03:32.138)
Yeah. And it's like, so, um, he's a good driver. Definitely every time we do something new, it's stressful. Both of our hearts are going boom, boom. I was like, so here's something that I have to do. And as I'm doing them, like, Holy crap. I got 65 hours with my son side by side in a car. Yeah. And so.

Papa Rick (01:03:42.576)
Hehehehehehe

Papa Rick (01:03:54.812)
Yeah. Yeehaw.

Steve Anderson (01:03:59.998)
A lot of times we are not going to have a deep conversation at all because that will get us killed. Never driven the speed before, right? He needs to focus, but we're together, right? Maybe he goes through a stop sign. Maybe I'm like, whoa. And he's like, okay, learning. And you know, I mean, he can see opportunities for correction, right? And doing it in a way that, you know, both...

Papa Rick (01:04:00.46)
Hahaha

Papa Rick (01:04:06.728)
Yeah, yeah, you gotta pick your time, yeah.

Jennie (01:04:06.778)
Right.

Steve Anderson (01:04:28.718)
Correction, hey son, went too fast there, I'd slow down. Right, two, nice job on that turn. Right, so you just, all these small interactions and no radio because he's learning how to drive, smaller light conversations. And it's funny, if a conversation starts going a little bit past light, it's like, nope, we gotta shut it down because new drivers, the three of us, we've been driving for 15 to 40 years.

Papa Rick (01:04:35.116)
Here you go.

Steve Anderson (01:04:56.766)
We can do a lot of stuff on autopilot, but in the beginning not. But that obligation is, is great. I, um, so there's opportunity there.

Papa Rick (01:04:58.864)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:05:07.604)
I used to live, I used to live for chances to get my, to trap my kids in the car with me. That's where Jenny and I had some, we'd have screaming contests so you could scream higher pitched and, uh, you know, it wasn't all fun and games, but I used to look for opportunities to be one-on-one or one-on-three, whatever, with the kids, because the bit we had the best conversations. There's nothing else to do. There's no distraction, you know, when I was driving.

Jennie (01:05:34.695)
when he was driving. Ha ha ha.

Steve Anderson (01:05:38.754)
Yeah. I love side by side stuff, right? Because there's something, and it's not just boys too, I think there's something about, you know, if you're side by side in a car or maybe you're side by side and you're both drawing or painting on a canvas or just any fun side by side without that eye contact can actually counter intuitively lead to better conversations because

Papa Rick (01:06:03.072)
Somehow.

Jennie (01:06:04.024)
It's less intimidating to be vulnerable if you're not looking directly at each other.

Papa Rick (01:06:06.548)
Yeah.

Jenny brought that up in a previous podcast, something about being like this instead of like this. Yeah.

Jennie (01:06:13.709)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Anderson (01:06:15.786)
Yeah, and you put a crayon in some smaller kid's hand and you're just drawing, you know, and asking about the day, you might get more out of there, right? Or then you can, you know, you know, you can also do, you know, things like draw your classroom, you know, and then you draw too and stuff and all of a sudden, you know what I mean? And you can look at the picture and tell me about the picture. Yeah, well.

Jennie (01:06:25.169)
Huh?

Jennie (01:06:37.863)
Hmm.

Papa Rick (01:06:40.448)
You get a little EQ going on in there, you know, how do they? Yeah.

Steve Anderson (01:06:44.446)
And if you can see, if the teacher has demon horns on, your kid's either very creative and funny, or there's a bad relationship going on. So there's a...

Jennie (01:06:49.466)
Yes.

Papa Rick (01:06:50.534)
Exactly.

Papa Rick (01:06:57.083)
How fat is that built? What do they call it? Projectives?

I forget now. Anyway, you know, you extrapolate things from drawings. Yeah. Just sitting in front, sitting around color and with the kids.

Steve Anderson (01:07:07.616)
Yes.

Jennie (01:07:12.091)
They actually, there's research backed science on the importance of play with children, the importance of play for all of us. There's research backed for anyone at any age, the pointlessness of doing something that you just enjoy, just to have fun. But specifically in children zero to seven, there's a lot of research now that shows

Papa Rick (01:07:23.232)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:07:34.206)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:07:42.139)
need play in order to connect with us. They need us to play and not 24 seven and not all day every day like your children will learn to entertain themselves and play together. And in fact uninterrupted play is extremely important for their neural development. But you will have a deeper conversation with your three year old, five year old, seven year old when you sit down and play cars or sit down and color or do whatever they're doing. And you can

Papa Rick (01:07:51.714)
Hmm.

Jennie (01:08:10.267)
pop a few questions in there about their day or, you know, their teacher or whatever. Um, they will talk to you and sometimes you don't have to say anything. They'll just start talking to you because their hands are busy. And so now their brain can kind of turn on. Whereas if you're like interviewing your child in the back seat about like, you know, how was your day? What'd you do today? What was, what'd you do this? You'll be like, I don't know. Whatever. You know? Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:08:13.225)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (01:08:35.83)
Yeah, interrogation. Well, there's something, it's about burning off that energy too, right? If you run around and you're just like, you just, it's like burning off energy sort of lowers some of the defenses too. Cause it's like, oh, that energy's out. So now I can, you know, talk about something else. And I love, um, one of the coolest memories I have from, from Boyz II Men, and this is around rough and tumble play. So we had Boyz from 11 to 17.

Papa Rick (01:08:38.4)
Just the thing that...

Jennie (01:08:42.597)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:08:43.616)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:08:52.192)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (01:09:06.05)
And you know, that play is so important. So is rough and tumble. Cause if you think of, and this is not, I mean, some people immediately start thinking fight club and it's like, no people, it's like rough and tumble play is when you're actually, you know, physically manipulating things. And this is very important because you learn multiple things like, Hey, if I do this too far, it hurts me. It hurts that other person, you know? And so there's a thing about learning about how you can hurt. You're not trying to, you're learning about that. You're learning trust. And so.

Jennie (01:09:14.531)
No.

Papa Rick (01:09:15.725)
That's right, club.

Papa Rick (01:09:27.936)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (01:09:28.263)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:09:34.578)
Limits and stuff, yeah.

Steve Anderson (01:09:36.59)
One of my favorite, and I can, it was, there was this one very big guy. Um, and, you know, and at one point, and they've just had like a break between activities, there were two, he was basically wrestling with two small boys who, like one was around his waist and one was over his shoulder. Right. I mean, it looked like, you know, I was like, it just, and they were laughing and having fun.

And it was just so beautiful. And, right, the big guy knew how to wrestle with these smaller guys and not hurt them. And the little guys weren't being dumb either, right? Because I'm sure if one of them would have hit him in the groin, he probably would have dropped him a little fast and things would change. So it's like that play is huge for a

Papa Rick (01:10:20.968)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:10:21.019)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:10:28.116)
Yeah, Pokemon a nose or something. Yeah.

Jennie (01:10:28.944)
Right.

Steve Anderson (01:10:35.49)
for trust in connection. And there's definitely like, I remember when I, there was a part of me, and I told you, I quit football at 10th grade, because there was a part of me that absolutely loved putting my shoulder pads into somebody else's shoulder pads, right? And just that push in conflict, right? When they're five inches taller,

Papa Rick (01:10:58.997)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (01:11:04.318)
80 pounds more and I'm all of a sudden looking up at the sky on a kickoff return. I'm like, okay, no, that's, that's dinner. But there's, you know, I think in not in every boy, right. But in a lot of boys that push that physical thing is like just something it's there's a in for some right in an innate drive for it. Right. And there's others like, no, I'll get my contact another way. It's just how, dude, it's fine. Right. So it's.

Papa Rick (01:11:11.656)
less fun.

Papa Rick (01:11:29.676)
There's some kind of emotional payoff in that. It feels good to release that energy or whatever. Yeah.

Jennie (01:11:30.575)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (01:11:33.261)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:11:38.727)
Well, there's a physical, so there's different, there's different levels of need, different spaces of need. And we all have physical needs, we all have emotional needs, we all have mental stimulation needs, we like, we all have spiritual needs. And in a lot of boys, like Steve said, not all boys, but in a vast majority of boys,

Again, there's research-backed science showing the need of boys to have rough and tumble play. And girls too, but it's higher in boys, in boy children. And all of these kids that have been diagnosed with ADHD in the classroom because they're expected to sit still for seven hours a day, they're like, this is insanity. The kids need to be outside. Kids were never...

Papa Rick (01:12:17.588)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:12:34.484)
need to play some dodgeball.

Jennie (01:12:36.151)
Yeah, no one was out and not for 30 minutes a day, but like for four or five hours a day. Like we should be outside, our children should be outside running around, exploring, touching things, trees, grass, rocks. What is this? How does this work? Like our physical connection to our world is our first teacher of how we exist here.

Steve Anderson (01:13:00.29)
I've got a funny subbing story around that. So I sub for fun not too often, because that stuff's exhausting. I mean, teaching at college, piece of cake, K through 12. But I do it about once every 10 days, and seeing the different grades. And I'm in this fourth grade class, and they're starting to get squirrely. And I've got voice to man experience. I know what's going on, just what you talked about, the energy. I'm like, all right.

Papa Rick (01:13:03.313)
No.

Jennie (01:13:07.685)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:13:10.324)
Little kid. Yeah.

Jennie (01:13:12.155)
Especially the sub teacher, man, you get abused.

Steve Anderson (01:13:29.41)
We're playing a game. When I say one, everybody runs in place. I say two, everybody does jumping jacks. Three, I can't remember. And four, pushups, right? And so we're all standing up. I'm like one, and I'm doing it too, and everybody's running. Then I'm like three, and you can tell they're waiting for the pushups, right? Two.

Papa Rick (01:13:39.788)
Calisthenics, baby!

Jennie (01:13:41.706)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Anderson (01:13:50.806)
And I say pushups and all of a sudden there was only one group. And of course it was boys, right? They're going to explore more where one guy is like putting his feet on the back of the other and I'm like, no, just regular pushups. But the cool was there was a group of girls who got into it more than the boys. And there was this one girl who was just kicking out the, the pushups, you know, and the girls around her like, yeah, you know, and it was just, it was like, you know, we did that for two minutes.

Papa Rick (01:13:59.001)
Oh boy, oh boy! Nice!

Papa Rick (01:14:11.116)
Cool.

Steve Anderson (01:14:20.13)
burned off some energy and then they're like, okay, and we went back to doing stuff and it was fine. But yeah, that running around, I think, and ever I hear anybody cutting down and reducing the recess time and the activity, it's like, that's so short-sighted and against everything we know about kids' psychology and learning. And it's, it's... Oh, and...

Jennie (01:14:36.443)
Mm.

Papa Rick (01:14:41.436)
Yeah, yeah, there's a minimum that's going to have diminishing returns.

Steve Anderson (01:14:48.002)
But how about this to turn this to parents, right? So these kids, these fourth graders, this, we played a game where I said one number and they did jumping jacks. I said two, I never, not the most complicated thing. So, you know, we can do simple stuff with our kids. If you know your kid is squirrely and needs to burn off some energy, there's, you can, so that you can do it with them.

I have a friend Darby, his daughter, he said she's either going to destroy America or save it because of the amount of energy she has. And it's legit. And when I was over visiting him one time, he had a big backyard and he'd be like, hey, it's both. Big backyard. Run to the fence and touch it and come back. You know, zoom, zoom. And she could do that, you know, eight times.

Jennie (01:15:23.215)
I have a couple girls in my life that we'd say that about. Ha ha ha!

Papa Rick (01:15:23.72)
Hahaha

Yeah.

Steve Anderson (01:15:43.934)
before she's getting winded. And it was like, that was a parenting survival strategy. Zoom.

Papa Rick (01:15:50.508)
She needed the challenge. It just, yeah.

Jennie (01:15:50.716)
Yes.

Jennie (01:15:55.663)
That was always when I was nannying full time. Like that was just out of, like there was no question about how we would start our day. I didn't care if it was snowy, zero degrees outside. I would show up, if it was morning time, we'd be eating, we'd eat breakfast. And then man, we got outside. It was the first part of our day.

And I, it got me outside too, because I couldn't just be like, all right, like bundle up, see you later. It would get me outside and running around and playful and like they'd be giggling and it would, you know, get me more motivated and laughing and making things fun outside. And it's like, and girls need it too. And I, and all kids need it, but I think I just,

Papa Rick (01:16:29.44)
Good for the parent too, yeah.

Jennie (01:16:51.655)
I don't know. I think we get so used to being in classrooms and offices and our houses and doing chores that we forget. We forget. And your kids are going to do what you do. And so if you sit on your phone for two hours every morning to start your day, that's what your kids are watching as the example of.

Papa Rick (01:16:59.776)
Too many screens. Yeah.

Jennie (01:17:21.071)
or if you get your shoes on and go outside, you know, go on a family walk or whatever, you know, you're setting them up for the habits for the rest of their lives. Yeah.

Steve Anderson (01:17:35.138)
And it's also a good place where you're not a hypocrite if you're also exercising. You can use it.

Jennie (01:17:40.227)
Yeah, telling your kid to do stuff that you don't do is just, you're going to lose that battle all of the time. Ha ha ha. Ha ha.

Papa Rick (01:17:47.261)
Don't smoke!

Steve Anderson (01:17:49.142)
Yeah. But I mean, but that can be great, right? If you were like, hey, if you, you know, if you're sitting all day, you know, that's messing with you too. So it can be great for, you get to be a good role model, but you also get off your butt and walk around the block with the dog too, or the kids are, you know, go to the park. So, you know, that's so many, a lot of those things that we, you know, sometimes can feel resentment for or good grief, I have to do this. You know, if we can...

Papa Rick (01:18:05.406)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (01:18:16.702)
reframe and look at it about, oh man, this is awesome because you know what? They're only going to want to hold my hand on walks for so long. And then it's going to be side by side. And then it's going to be, I got friends. So

Papa Rick (01:18:25.265)
So long, yeah.

Papa Rick (01:18:31.184)
Windows in closing. Next thing you know, they're in Colorado.

Steve Anderson (01:18:34.707)
Yeah

Jennie (01:18:36.487)
Well, your opportunity and obligation. I love that phrasing. My husband, he's very energized in the mornings, but he wakes up and he's instantly ready to tackle his to-do list. And his to-do list might be sitting down at the computer and paying bills first thing in the morning, which when he wakes up and his body is ready to go and he drinks, he's sipping his coffee.

Papa Rick (01:19:00.351)
Thank you.

Jennie (01:19:06.107)
The last thing he needs is to sit down at his desk and try to focus. And he's been learning very much recently that the first, like we got a new puppy a few months ago and that puppy needs walked, okay? And if that puppy does not get his morning walk, he is a terror for the rest of the day. And so, you know, Louis huffs and puffs and it's so annoying and I have this obligation. Now we have to walk him in the morning or else blah, blah.

and it's cold and all these things, but he, over the several months of having this dog, he's realizing how much a morning walk, it makes him feel so much better for the rest of the day. Or he gets up and does his workout, does his calisthenics and then walks the dog and then comes home and sips his coffee and gets going on his to-do list.

like he's a happier human for the rest of the day. Um, and I just think, you know, we're, we're halfway to having our first kid. And I just keep looking forward to like all the opportunities inside the obligations. I really liked that phrasing that you said, Steve, because we're, I'm like, oh, you know, newborn phase, that's going to be hard for all of the reasons. But then once it's like,

Papa Rick (01:20:20.944)
Thank you.

Jennie (01:20:31.503)
they need taken care of and they need this and that. I'm gonna have so much more external, like motivation to care for them, which will help me take care of myself and be more like movement oriented and outdoor oriented and all of these things. Whereas when it's just me, it's so easy to just like, I'm just gonna post up on the couch and scroll on my phone.

Papa Rick (01:20:56.384)
They're not, those things are not mutually exclusive. You can, you can be taking care of your kid and be learning something yourself, right? Working on some kind of skill or internal growth thing. It's like, what's the saying where you can, you can do what you love or love what you do. You know, you can learn to love what you do. And if you're, even though it may not be your favorite thing in the world.

It's about mindset, it's about priorities, it's about all the stuff we're talking about, being aware, growing where you're at with what you start, where you start at.

Jennie (01:21:33.667)
Yeah. So Steve, we're well over our hour, but I wanted, let's see.

Papa Rick (01:21:38.667)
Aww.

Jennie (01:21:46.395)
I wanted to know what are some of the most, I wanna bring fathers back into this on the highlight. And I wanna know what are some of like, you know, two or three of the most common things that when dads come to you for coaching, what do you see most commonly underlying fatherhood these days?

Like the prop, like the.

Papa Rick (01:22:16.896)
What do people come to you for kind of thing?

Jennie (01:22:20.291)
Well, specifically dads and whatever their issue is that they're coming to you with. What are some of the most common ones?

Steve Anderson (01:22:23.187)
in it.

Steve Anderson (01:22:28.318)
Well, you know, in the conversations that I've had, um, I think underneath it, whether it's work life balance, right. Um, getting the, and I had, I had one dad who has a podcast, uh, who talked about, he likes work life harmony as a better way to think about, you need to be in harmony of the two. Yeah. Um,

Jennie (01:22:48.547)
MMMM

Papa Rick (01:22:49.544)
It's a better goal. Yeah, yeah.

Steve Anderson (01:22:54.13)
underneath that or in underneath like relationship challenges is, is a sense of helplessness. And I think, and that is such a, it's such a brutal, brutal to feel powerless, right? Like I have to keep this job that I hate, but it's making me a bad dad because I'm coming out stressed out, you know, or, you know, how do I, you know, maybe, um,

Jennie (01:23:02.885)
Mmm.

Jennie (01:23:18.599)
Mmm.

Steve Anderson (01:23:23.362)
And I don't have this specifically, but I've heard this from other friends, right, about how in a divorce the child is being used as a tool to punish, you know, and so...

Papa Rick (01:23:31.043)
Everybody's worried about their own thing, yep.

Steve Anderson (01:23:33.31)
Yeah, so I think under so much of this is a sense of powerlessness, right? In that, you know, they're at a spot where it's like...

I can't do anything. And what a terrible, if you feel like you can't do anything, it doesn't matter what you do. It just, it destroys motivation. The will, yeah, and the whole, it's definitely, I think, a part of it is this is how it's always been. So it's very difficult. Whatever that...

Papa Rick (01:24:00.936)
if you don't know what to do. Yeah.

Steve Anderson (01:24:16.474)
has been for the person, very difficult to see a new way about it. And sometimes, if you're in a rut, you can't see above it. And it's so, it's hard to, you have to figure out, okay, how can you start, what's one thing to move you out of the rut? And then over time, it gets to open up. But the underlying sense of powerlessness

Papa Rick (01:24:28.352)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:24:28.473)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (01:24:45.874)
I think you can pick your fatherhood complaint and there's probably an element of that in there.

Jennie (01:24:50.969)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:24:51.936)
Yeah.

Yeah, overcoming the inertia, finding the energy, finding in yourself the energy to be more aware and then go search for solutions. And you have to peel off some of that energy to change course, you know?

Steve Anderson (01:25:10.29)
And Rick, you mentioned this too. I know for myself, one of the things that I had to deal with, there is a fear of being authentic. Because if I am really who I am and I start telling people that I don't like that, which I've never mentioned before, I do like this, how are they going to react? And

Papa Rick (01:25:23.317)
Yes, there is.

Papa Rick (01:25:32.901)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Anderson (01:25:39.29)
I think Brene Brownright will tell you being vulnerable, you build relationships and she's absolutely right. And being vulnerable can absolutely be used against you and some people will. So it's not, it's not a freebie. I wouldn't tell everybody, well, just go, go be vulnerable, Dave. It'll work. It's like, well.

Papa Rick (01:25:41.032)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:25:50.907)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:25:57.947)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:25:59.392)
You got to find a spot to do it. It's, you know, when you're at work, when you're in charge of something, you know, that's probably not the time you don't find a lot of vulnerable ship captains in the middle of war. I'm sitting here thinking about the movie Greyhound, right? People are looking to you for answers. That's not the time to be weepy. Um, compartmentalization you were talking about before, but it's by the same token.

When you come home to your family, that's the time to turn it on and be authentic with your kids. You got to, I think for guys, the work home balance thing, I think the tough thing is, well, when I'm home, it's, and masking, the idea of people wearing masks in different roles and stuff, you know, as a dad, you can work on my mask at home. People who know me at work would not know me at home. You know, who's that goofy guy?

rolling around with all these wrestling, all these kids at the same time, you know? And that's a, that, I think that's a good place to start. And then, you know, you gotta, you gotta build up the way it is now, isn't the way it's always gonna be, you know, have a sense of time. And boy, but boy, the, I think the, the starting thing is you gotta carve out some energy somewhere. You gotta figure out, justify some self-care and say, I don't like the way it is. And so if I'm gonna make it.

different. I have to find some energy to expend to leave 15 minutes early, say no to something and walk away from work, you know? It's tough.

Steve Anderson (01:27:35.374)
And sometimes, right, and what you might need to be a better father might have nothing to do immediately with your son or daughter, right? Because maybe if you're sleep deprived, forget everything else. What you need to do is fix your sleep schedule or at least build in 10 to 20 minute naps, nothing longer, because then you start moving into REM sleep and you're less revived from of it. But it's like so much of that self that...

Papa Rick (01:27:46.348)
Correct. Yep.

Jennie (01:27:49.851)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:27:59.378)
Yeah.

Steve Anderson (01:28:05.378)
Good parenting, there's a huge chunk of it that...

has nothing to do with your kids, but has everything to do with how you interact with your kids.

Papa Rick (01:28:16.168)
Yeah, with you. It starts with you. You got to put your own mask on before you put the oxygen masks on the kids. So you don't pass out taking care of them kind of thing. Yeah. It's gotta be a shorter word for that.

Jennie (01:28:21.671)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Anderson (01:28:24.759)
Yeah.

But it's a place where sometimes the right thing to do as a parent is to be selfish. To make sure, well, you know what? I'm making sure my kids are eating and my kids are sleeping, but then I'm dang well making sure that I'm also eating something decent and I'm getting sleep too. And then that, right, frees up.

Jennie (01:28:34.394)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:28:43.451)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:28:48.608)
Yeah. We need to invent a word other than selfish for that. We need it, but we need taking care of ourselves so that we have the energy we need to take care of our families as an obligation. It's like, no, you're.

Jennie (01:29:03.204)
You have to fill your cup before you can fill anyone else's.

Papa Rick (01:29:06.1)
Yeah, yeah, because what do I think of it as being, well, I'm going to be selfish and I'm going to go take some time or something like that. And it's like, no, something in there. If you're doing it all day, every day. Yeah, that's not good, but 15 minutes of that a day or an hour or whatever it takes. That's an obligation because otherwise you're going to be barking at people, you know.

Steve Anderson (01:29:06.114)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Anderson (01:29:23.835)
And

That's one of those cultural constructs, right? That negative connotations with the word selfish, right? We tell a kid, you're selfish, you're not sharing your toys, you know, or it's like, well, you know what? Maybe he should share toys, or maybe she's covered in peanut butter and he doesn't want peanut butter on his Superman, which is understandable. But, and I, right? That goes back to...

Papa Rick (01:29:31.756)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:29:35.945)
Yeah, yeah.

Papa Rick (01:29:46.424)
That's right. That's one of those situational ethics things. Yeah, you know, you got to evaluate.

Jennie (01:29:46.947)
Right?

Steve Anderson (01:29:57.534)
What do I think everybody, and I do not have an answer for this because I have my answer. I think every father needs to spend some time thinking about, okay, what does it mean to me to be a father? And what do I want that to look like? And then it is that if you have a vision of the father that you want to be, now you've got a direction to move to. Without a vision, and you're already under all the stress.

Papa Rick (01:30:12.044)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jennie (01:30:22.512)
Yes.

Steve Anderson (01:30:26.834)
What the heck would you do but keep doing that?

Papa Rick (01:30:29.184)
Yep, you gotta have a target. Work where, set a goal and work towards the goal so you're aimed, you know, in some way.

Steve Anderson (01:30:36.906)
And I think if you're off track and not being the parent that your kids need, you know, they have multiple ways of letting you know. And some of them can be pretty detrimental to them too. So it's like when I see a kid who's acting up, right, when I'm subbing, right, the first thing that I wonder is what's going on.

but not always, right? What's going on at home that it makes sense that he's either looking for so much attention, however he can get it here, or he's trying to bully that kid around, what's he missing?

Papa Rick (01:31:09.429)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:31:15.072)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:31:20.384)
Destructive attention, negative attention is better than no attention, right? You know, there's neglect going on. You see a kid being self-destructive then that's like, uh, what the heck's going on.

Steve Anderson (01:31:30.734)
Oh, right. If you're coming or coming from a chaotic situation, at least now, this is what I think of when I see those really good manipulator kids. You know who you can watch and move around and start fires. It's like, dang.

Papa Rick (01:31:35.829)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:31:39.114)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:31:39.172)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (01:31:43.727)
I don't know.

Papa Rick (01:31:44.361)
It's a survival skill. It's Darwinian. It's not much fun in polite society.

Steve Anderson (01:31:47.514)
Yep. This person knows how to is, is affecting control in a very subtle way. Wouldn't it be awesome if we could channel this towards, you know, constructive things instead of destructive.

Papa Rick (01:31:55.589)
Mm-hmm

Jennie (01:32:00.955)
Right?

Papa Rick (01:32:01.5)
Saving the world, not destroying the world.

Jennie (01:32:07.455)
Awesome. I... yeah, there's... I feel like I could keep asking you questions all day. Um, yeah, we'll have to...

Papa Rick (01:32:14.708)
We gotta have you back, Steve. I don't know what schedule looks like. We gotta have you back.

Steve Anderson (01:32:19.692)
I'd love to come back.

Jennie (01:32:22.039)
I love this. And I think I, as I've been exploring more dad perspectives to have on the show, I've been finding more that there are coaches out there. There are dads who are coaching other dads and that, that the, the programs exist, the coaching exists, the people exist. And that it, it's really about.

looking for it. And I think that...

Jennie (01:32:58.039)
I think that it's harder to find because there's less of you. But I think that if anyone did a Google search for a dad coach, they would find it. And so I just want to encourage anyone who's listening that you share this with someone, anyone that we spread the word so that the men in our lives are aware of.

Papa Rick (01:33:07.776)
There's stuff out there.

Jennie (01:33:25.179)
the services that really truly are available to them. I think that social media and common knowledge show all of the mom classes and birthing classes and parenting classes. And I think that the dad stuff goes underrepresented. So, yeah.

Steve Anderson (01:33:45.502)
And I just add too is that is to look around, right? Because there's a variety, right? Of fathers out there, of coaches out there, you know, you find the one that you're like, oh, this guy's making sense, right? Because I'm sure there's a couple, yeah, right? And because there's so many ways to be a good dad.

Jennie (01:33:52.704)
Okay.

Jennie (01:33:58.723)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:34:00.276)
You gotta click with one, yeah.

Papa Rick (01:34:09.664)
Yep.

Steve Anderson (01:34:10.746)
you know, and the path to get there is going to be unique for everybody. So, you know, whether it's whatever group that you can find, right, or that support, it's like if I was going to like, and if I was going to, I am ending with this. Father's out there, right? No matter where you are. In life or how it's going, as long as you are alive, there is a chance, right? It might it and maybe

Papa Rick (01:34:36.821)
Yes.

Steve Anderson (01:34:41.074)
Maybe it's a small chance, right? And you've done some damage and those kids are going to hold that against you for, but you can, you can start, you can make small movements and you can make small movements, bigger movements. And as far as being a dad, right? The game's never over, right? Our kids change, they grow up and they, right, move to Colorado and they start their own lives, right? And that's, that's part of it, right? But that's, you know, but, but.

Papa Rick (01:34:57.26)
There's no statute or limitations.

Jennie (01:35:02.805)
Hehehehe

Papa Rick (01:35:04.076)
I hate it when they do that.

Steve Anderson (01:35:08.722)
And I think this is an awesome example too. And I really appreciate the way that you shared that you have had, you know, you do argue and you've had arguments and, you know, every, every new age kind of bracket, right, brings a new set of challenge between the fathers and their sons and daughters. And, um, but

Papa Rick (01:35:16.487)
Oh yeah.

Papa Rick (01:35:30.22)
When you get older, it's nice because there's some distance now and you can talk about things you couldn't talk about when you were 12 and 20, you know, and that kind of stuff. So there's, yeah, never give up hope, the statute of limitations on taking care of your kids, healing with your kids, never answering their questions, never runs out, and you can always learn a new trick, you know, don't count. All you can change is yourself.

Steve Anderson (01:35:35.479)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:35:57.448)
You can't fix your kids, right? You can't control them, but you can make yourself open and they'll come around if you let them.

Jennie (01:36:11.815)
Steve, tell everyone where they can find you. We'll link all of your stuff and then to show notes as well.

Steve Anderson (01:36:18.774)
Okay. Well, so if you want to see little tidbits, I have the best dad project on Facebook. But one really thing, I'm big on writing and journaling. So I actually created something free, a PDF on journaling that's got three questions for emotional, some emotional awareness, which is sort of the standard questions that you could use. Another set of questions that is used to look at your parenting, if something goes well or wrong, how you can.

Papa Rick (01:36:30.689)
Huh?

Jennie (01:36:32.027)
Oh.

Steve Anderson (01:36:46.638)
take a little break and dissect it and maybe learn something out of it and just some general seven strategies for getting more out of a journal. So totally free if you send me an email at steve at steveanderson.coach, right? Send me an email, say, you know, PDF or relational parent or just say, pamphlet free thing. I will send you it. Right. And if you've got any questions, then that's a really easy way to do it. And

Jennie (01:37:07.823)
Hahaha!

Papa Rick (01:37:08.204)
Hehe

Steve Anderson (01:37:15.166)
You know, every once in a while I'll be sending out freebies, but not, I don't inundate because nobody likes that.

Jennie (01:37:22.723)
Right? Awesome. Well, we will link all of that in the show notes so everyone can find you, can find your email. And just thank you so much. Thank you for being here, but also thank you for taking your life experience and transmuting that into serving the world in this way.

Papa Rick (01:37:47.06)
Yep. Yeah. Making the world a better place. It's good to see you out there. Good to know you're out.

Steve Anderson (01:37:53.294)
But thank you, and that's very humbling.

Papa Rick (01:37:57.452)
Hehehehe

Jennie (01:38:00.242)
Awesome. All right. Well, we will see everybody next time. Happy parenting and good luck out there.